There is something remotely similar with upgraded older, non-aegis destroyers.
054B/new generation frigate
- Thread starter Blitzo
- Start date
Is the fleet or homeport known?
Except that none of these are low end threats. You would never send a 054A out alone if there was a significant risk of being attacked by stealth aircraft or a saturation missile attack. Hell, you would never even send a 055 out alone if there were a significant risk it could get attacked by stealth aircraft or a saturation missile attack. Those are high end threats demanding high end defenses, such as would be provided by SAGs and CSGs. Low end threats such as submarine attacks, missile/gun boats, and random patrolling enemy corvettes/frigates/CG cutters is what the 054A would be expected to face alone or as a small group of 054As during the few missions it would be relegated to: ASW, convoy escort, and near seas wartime patrol.
BTW I don't see any reason it couldn't handle a LRASM or two, not that it would even be exposed to such a threat in the first place. Philippines, Singapore, India, Indonesia, etc. don't have this missile and are not inclined to attack China in the first place. Korea attacking China would be suicidal. You basically are looking at Japanese and American assets, neither of which would attack with lone F-35Bs in the First Island Chain, and if there were a risk of them doing so, no 054A would be sent out to fend for itself in such a high risk environment. Maybe Australia would try to sneak a Collins in there (highly doubtful). Maybe France and UK may try to sneak an SSN into the fray (highly doubtful). But that's what you're looking at. Lone subs trying to pick off your commerce. Maybe an LCS trying to sneak in there to cause trouble. Larger forces would be more easily detected and would not be met by 054As in those cases.
Those are threats that can pop up literally everywhere, right to China's shore (which is painfully big and has crazy amounts of vulnerable traffic). Even when you develop protection plans for that coastal traffic, you have to take them into account.
Seas around China are just too large to be tightly controlled, but crossing them with aircraft (even non vlo, at lower altitude) is fast enough. All possible kinds of land features around China to the South are sources of attack, and in case of Taiwan, Philippines and japanese islands are explicitly developed as such.
Indian friendship with China is overstated as well. Vietnam tries to avoid this conflict, but it's last nation China fought with (including at sea) in the first place.
For any more remote and offensive activity, say, convoys to forward bases, or supplies to offensive amphibious operations, everything applies even more.
Seeing India as friendly to China is also an overstatement. Few things unite indian politics, but hostility and suspicion to China is definitely one.
Also, I don't agree that submarine attack as a *low end attack*. Neither with cruise missiles, nor with heavyweight torpedoes(which are the deadliest and most sure weapon in modern naval warfare in the first place).
If you spot them in time - yes, no problem, they aren't that difficult as targets per se(though 054a close range options aren't very good). However, you aren't working with a very aware combatant here, even for normal ASCMs. And LRASMs are especially easy to miss.
For example, USMC F-35 presence is more or less expected on Luzon. And this was published just a couple days ago:
This is just a part of general US TACAIR update; most strike fighter platforms there are getting LRASM or/and JSM capabilities(as well as finally get relevant harpoon integration); there was a just yesterday. Others already have it.
Finally, about B-21s. Not expecting them to attack within 1IC is also optimistic - what are they even for, then...
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While individual stealth fighters may venture into enemy territory, I doubt they would do so. They would more likely deploy as part of large attack packages meant to achieve a specific goal, e.g. taking out a SAM site, blowing up a shipyard, etc. And while individual stealth bombers penetrating into enemy airspace would almost invariably be the norm, it is extremely unlikely that they would pick a 054A as their main target, or even as a target of opportunity. They have bigger fish to fry and risk detection and destruction every time they attack a target. So why would it ever be a 054A?
I never said India was "friends" with China; they are not. I said that India was not inclined to attack China, and it's not. There is no scenario short of total world war where India and China get involved in military hostilities that initially started out in Taiwan or the SCS (rather than say along the LAC).
I think 054As, especially a wolfpack of them, are well-suited for ASW. Submarines are not capable of launching saturation attacks with ASCMs, and whatever ASCM volley they can launch, a 054A could handle, especially one that was actively hunting subs. And a 054A with deployed TAS/VDS listening for subs would be unlikely to be surprised to such an extent that an enemy sub could close to within torpedo range.
I haven't heard that the HHQ-16 is bad at close range. The 054As benefit from 360 degree coverage against ASCMs. The 054A's horizon search radar would be turned on (unlike whatever Moskva was doing). In that kind of setting I think the 054A is well-suited to hunt subs, especially the 054A+ iterations, or whatever they are called these days. As for LRASMs being easy to miss, I'm not sure they are all that easy to miss, especially by the time they are crossing the radar horizon at 25-30km distance.
Why?
You're assuming for your opponent; it's absolutely normal for MRF to conduct reconnaissance strike or interdiction missions in small formations (2-4 ship).
Also, F-35B operations in SCS, for example, are almost by default going to be in no more than few planes. Gather too many dispersed planes together, and you get to sign a cluster of gifts by PLARF.
Virginia easily can offload saturation attack that 054A can't handle, even now; it's a salvo measured in seconds.
Soon, block V Virginia's with Yasen-level VLS counts will go operational.
Furthermore, soon it(as well as other US units at sea and on shore) will also get capability to launch something hypersonic.
Those are not kinds of tracks you engage with Fregat.
Torpedo range may be point blank, torpedo range can be in order of 50 miles...
HHQ-16 is a heavy, cold-launched ARH missile. it by default imposes significant duty cycle, especially down low. Not as bad as multistage missiles, but it isn't exactly point defense weapon; 054a lacks HHQ-10, having only gun CIWS (single engagement channel), I.e. solution preferable against single, high speed leakers.
382 by itself is a rather dated and basic S-band radar, with origin dating back to 1980s. LRASM will be a hard catch, both due it's stealth (which is very high), and it's nasty ESM habits (which will be especially effective on dated radars); no, it is not impossible; quite the opposite, but it will most probably require concentration and professionalism of crew. Second is a basic must(a shame it is one of the musts humans struggle with for all our history), but first one can be expected only if crew was notified of attack(and that they're the target) in time.
Getting warning is thus crucial, and best and cheapest way to be warned in time(as well as get solution as early as possible) is to have modern 054B around.
"Virginia easily can offload saturation attack that 054A can't handle"
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Case A) The frigate 054A is sailing alone in an area where planes are searching for magnetic anomalies and unmanned submarines are patrolling, i.e., the Virginia has entered the hunting zone
Case B) The frigate 054A is sailing alongside destroyers, being just another part of the whole.
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Obviously, 054B is better, with a better radar and three defense rings:
30-20 km
9-6-3 km
3-0 km
The two inner rings are very striking: the small missiles in the second ring are a highly evolved version*, whose only external appearance is a reminder of their origin. And the last ring* is also very striking. And the exterior is quite good. Imho.
*: HHQ-10
*: 1130 CIWS
---
Case A) The frigate 054A is sailing alone in an area where planes are searching for magnetic anomalies and unmanned submarines are patrolling, i.e., the Virginia has entered the hunting zone
Case B) The frigate 054A is sailing alongside destroyers, being just another part of the whole.
---
Obviously, 054B is better, with a better radar and three defense rings:
30-20 km
9-6-3 km
3-0 km
The two inner rings are very striking: the small missiles in the second ring are a highly evolved version*, whose only external appearance is a reminder of their origin. And the last ring* is also very striking. And the exterior is quite good. Imho.
*: HHQ-10
*: 1130 CIWS
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-----B
B F* B
A * A
A) Aircraft patrol area searching for magnetic anomalies
B) Silent patrol area for fleet Submarines
F) Fleet
The frigate (*) may be detaining a merchant ship, in which case it may be sailing alone, or it may be using its sonar to scan an area, or it may be sailing as part of the big Fleet (F)
(I can't make a good drawing with the letters, but it's more or less understandable)
B F* B
A * A
A) Aircraft patrol area searching for magnetic anomalies
B) Silent patrol area for fleet Submarines
F) Fleet
The frigate (*) may be detaining a merchant ship, in which case it may be sailing alone, or it may be using its sonar to scan an area, or it may be sailing as part of the big Fleet (F)
(I can't make a good drawing with the letters, but it's more or less understandable)
A saturation attack with what?
Soon? When is soon? Many things can happen "soon".
Unlike land based HQ-16s, HHQ-16 is hot launched. Even if was cold launch, I don't see what relevance that would have. And as far as I know, HHQ-16 is semi-active, not ARH.
TLAM blk.Va onwards, i.e. production from 2021 on. (main USN LACM).
First boat (USS Arizona) will be launched this year, will reach service ca. 2027, two years from now. Likely two more around 2028; if additional 4 unit rumors will realise, likely more or less around the same time 054B numbers will start making impact.
Also, mr. officer, do i get a lawyer?
HHQ-16F(latest and best) is active seeker. It takes time for it to scan and find assigned (important) target. In SARH mode it may be faster, but saturation attack at close range can easily confuse SARH illumination, due to engagement geometry.
Relevance is that attack cycle of VL SAMs include several seconds in launch, acceleration, and aiming; the larger missile, the more the time.
In general it's a dead zone measuring several kilometers; seconds matter.
By comparison, something like HHQ-10(no staging, direct launch, LOBL capability) may be effective almost right after arming itself. And of course, in 054B it by default will be under unified integrated CMS, i.e. different systems won't interfere with each other.
I.e., it may not be obvious, but switch from arm launchers to VLS isn't as straightforward an advantage as it seems(and arguably just a large of a reason is lack of maintenance, not just rate of fire).
But 054B, despite on paper being 054a with better radar suit, is in fact significantly more capable.