ZTQ-15 and PRC Light Tanks

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Bright Sword

Junior Member
Registered Member
ougoah said:
1000 Indian T-72 have been upgraded from useless to slightly less useless...
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Questions:
1. If India's confidence in T-72 upgrades was strong why were they developing the Arjun tanks which was supposed to replace the T-72s.
2. If the Arjun tanks were good then why did India procure T-90s from Russia.
3. The only battlefield scenario for use of Indian tanks is in a section of the Sindh and Punjab border with Pakistan. So Indian tanks are "Pakistan Centric " . In the past ( 1965 ) India used superior tanks against Pakistan pitting the Vickers Centurion tanks against obsolete Shermans and few Pattons. Given the obsolescence of the mainly T-80 and rehashed T-59 equipped Pakistani tank forces, why does India need such investment in tank resources ( unless India wants to roll into Saudi Arabia decimating Saudi M1 Abrams ). In 1971 Indian Vijayanta tanks ( Vickers Mk 1) should have rolled into Islamabad after destroying the T-59s in the way. For whatever reason they didn't.
Are the Indian tanks going to do much better today even assuming the Pakistanis will choose to fight tank battles on India's terms?
 
B

berserk

Junior Member
Registered Member
Bright Sword said:
Questions:
1. If India's confidence in T-72 upgrades was strong why were they developing the Arjun tanks which was supposed to replace the T-72s.
2. If the Arjun tanks were good then why did India procure T-90s from Russia.
3. The only battlefield scenario for use of Indian tanks is in a section of the Sindh and Punjab border with Pakistan. So Indian tanks are "Pakistan Centric " . In the past ( 1965 ) India used superior tanks against Pakistan pitting the Vickers Centurion tanks against obsolete Shermans and few Pattons. Given the obsolescence of the mainly T-80 and rehashed T-59 equipped Pakistani tank forces, why does India need such investment in tank resources ( unless India wants to roll into Saudi Arabia decimating Saudi M1 Abrams ). In 1971 Indian Vijayanta tanks ( Vickers Mk 1) should have rolled into Islamabad after destroying the T-59s in the way. For whatever reason they didn't.
Are the Indian tanks going to do much better today even assuming the Pakistanis will choose to fight tank battles on India's terms?
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I am not going to talk about Arjun and it's history here.
as for T 72 upgrade well since the Chinese tank turn out to be so week. i think indian army is satisfied with upcoming T 72 upgrade and think it will be more than enough which is a fact.
T 72B3M can take on your Type 99A in it's current form , forget VT 4 lol.
 
O

ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
Bright Sword said:
Questions:
1. If India's confidence in T-72 upgrades was strong why were they developing the Arjun tanks which was supposed to replace the T-72s.
2. If the Arjun tanks were good then why did India procure T-90s from Russia.
3. The only battlefield scenario for use of Indian tanks is in a section of the Sindh and Punjab border with Pakistan. So Indian tanks are "Pakistan Centric " . In the past ( 1965 ) India used superior tanks against Pakistan pitting the Vickers Centurion tanks against obsolete Shermans and few Pattons. Given the obsolescence of the mainly T-80 and rehashed T-59 equipped Pakistani tank forces, why does India need such investment in tank resources ( unless India wants to roll into Saudi Arabia decimating Saudi M1 Abrams ). In 1971 Indian Vijayanta tanks ( Vickers Mk 1) should have rolled into Islamabad after destroying the T-59s in the way. For whatever reason they didn't.
Are the Indian tanks going to do much better today even assuming the Pakistanis will choose to fight tank battles on India's terms?
Click to expand...

The Arjun desperately needs to rethink its armament. A rifled 120mm when the rest of their frontline MBTs are Russian 125mm? Also a rifled gun? Assuming the rest of the Arjun is good enough or can be upgraded to be good enough, India army was unsatisfied with the Arjun for the longest time before India finally found the political solution to forcing it on the IA. The Arjun is just too heavy for where India's powerplant and transmission capabilities currently are. They want a western style all aspect protection MBT but honestly that is a foolish thing to go for considering the maturity of their engine/transmissions and the kind of tank fights they may expect to fight. The T-72s are pound for pound going to be superior weapons compared to their Arjun just accounting for costs alone. I can only imagine how horrible Arjun's serviceability rate is and how much more their maintenance costs are.

I doubt the IA will actually buy and field that many Arjuns. It's a bad tank (read ineffective) and they don't want it. There's been talk of massive IA induction for years and years and years but they still have a handful only. Production rates are woeful. The mk.1 version was designed and built for a measly 124 units before a better variant came around and the mk.1 was forced on the army. Mk.2 is being "finalised" before alleged commitment to purchase "many" units. But T-90MS will be bought in the hundreds and T-90S was still purchased recently.

Yeah. India is not going to sink much stock into the Arjun mk.x unless they redevelop it so that it properly fulfills the IA's requirements. Why wouldn't they buy thousands if it was satisfactory? These tank forces are build ups in case of a total collapse in diplomacy and escalation of war. Both sides probably understand they are unfortunate necessities given how close they are to each other with no real geographic obstacles unlike Himalayas.
 
B

berserk

Junior Member
Registered Member
ougoah said:
These tank forces are build ups in case of a total collapse in diplomacy and escalation of war. Both sides probably understand they are unfortunate necessities given how close they are to each other with no real geographic obstacles unlike Himalayas.
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Yes this is also a reason i think. Other reason are cost, maintance , logistics.
More heavy MBT like Arjun can only be used effectively in Thar desert south and central part of border region not river and canal infested northern areas. as you mentioned rifled gun is another problem. indian armoured strength is more than adequate( overwhelming i would say to deal with all Pakistani threat's). we have over 1500 T 90. over twice the number of al khalid , T 80 in Pakistan service combined. 464 more have been recently ordered.
i won't even count 2000 T 72 still in use. 960, of which are getting upgraded.
Chinese tanks with serious firepower like ZTZ 99A cannot climb Tibet. If you sell it to Pakistan , india will phase out T 72 , upgrade T 90 to M standards and go for armata or Arjun with new challenger type upgrade with bigger gun.
 
B

Bright Sword

Junior Member
Registered Member
berserk said:
Arjun is over kill for most Pakistani tanks. no Chinese tank come close to it.
It's's protection level is highest among all indian Tanks including T 90 in indian service. It's a logistics and maintance nightmare + firepower is limited to 600mm DOP. T 90 suit us far better due to commonality with older T 72. as for Chinese doing hard work is a joke basically. Most of you technology has nothing indigenous in it.
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A "little bird" told me the Arjun tank's weight was too heavy for both the BFR railroad flat car transporters and the road bridges leading up to the battle front. The British era railroad tracks have mostly 50 kg/m rail sections ( though upgrades to 60 kg/m is underway) and the Indian Railway axle loads are 20.3 MT max. With four axles the bogies can only take 81.2 MT. The flat car (BFR) tare weight would be around 30 tonnes. A MK 2 tank weighs a massive 68-69 MT.
So specially reinforced BFRs, tracks, bridges, and roads are needed unless a 300 km cross country run is made.
In 1988 Pakistan was conducting trials of M1 Abrams ( and at one trial the Pakistani Army Chief and the US ambassador were assassinated) and rejected the Abrams M1 because of its excessive weight when in fact it is slightly lighter than the Arjun at around 61 MT. Railroad axles in the US are heavier rated at 25 MT and US rail and road bridges are far stronger than those in South Asia ( British India vintage).
A lighter VT-4 makes sense !
 
B

Bright Sword

Junior Member
Registered Member
berserk said:
I am not going to talk about Arjun and it's history here.
as for T 72 upgrade well since the Chinese tank turn out to be so week. i think indian army is satisfied with upcoming T 72 upgrade and think it will be more than enough which is a fact.
T 72B3M can take on your Type 99A in it's current form , forget VT 4 lol.
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Not much to talk about on Arjuns if it is so heavy it ends up like static artillery. Looks good on parades, though the Delhi Municipal Corporation street maintenance who end up resurfacing Jan Path after every January 26th get a pain in the rear.
 
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