105mm can't penetrate frontal armour of any tank within 200m? I find that hard to believe
ZTQ-15 and PRC Light Tanks
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D
Deleted member 13312
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Can't find the exact umber for the penetration values of the 105mm royal ordanance, so I will have to go by conjecture and assumption here.
The most advance version of the Abraham with DU armor has a armor value of 560mm RHA on the front glacis and 900mm RHA on the turret against APSD (and this is at a 0 degree estimation(assumed) so the value can be much higher when sloped), at least according to Zaloga who has been known to inflate certain facts and numbers.
The only penetration values that I can find which does not requires the read to wade through a sea of text puts the highest penetration values for the 105 at around 650mm plus at 3000mm.
So yes, a light tank can plausibly penetrate a modern MBT on the frontal glacis plate if it is so close that it would be literally shoving its gun right up in the opposing tank's face while mounting a 105mm gun with the best configuration while aiming at the correct angle. But the penetration values here will also have to be subjected to things like ERA armor, as Russia claims that its Relikt ERA can lower the effective penetration value of a APSD round.
The only way a armoured vehicle is expected to creep up on another armored vehicle even in a urban setting is that the opposing force had to be blind and deaf. Or they completely ignore the most basic rules of urban combat that is never send a tank out by itself.
TerraN_EmpirE
Tyrant King
Or the tank has been immobilized and run out of power. In the end where a light tank can shine is more against older tanks like the T55 or T62 and other light armor. Like BMP.
Also as a fire support platform for light infantry.
Also as a fire support platform for light infantry.
If 105 can penetrate 650mm from 3km (I assume you meant 3000 meters), don't you think the penetration power at 200-300 meters would be orders of magnitude greater? The kinetic energy of the sabot round certainly will be
Never mind, seems the velocity loss is minimal according to you paper
"The velocity loss due to drag during the projectile flight is relatively small with rods. Consequently detailed calculations were not carried out"
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plawolf
Lieutenant General
If you are using light tanks against enemy heavy MBTs, something has gone massively wrong.
The light tanks are designed for terrain and situations where you would not be expecting enemy heavy MBTs. Hell, in the kinds of places where deploying light tanks would make sense, you won’t really be expecting enemy tanks at all, unless they are also light tanks.
Think mountains, swamps, and light to medium wooded areas etc.
For the PLA, Taiwan might be an exception, at least initially, but the 105 is more than enough for Taiwan in any case.
As such, looking at how light tanks might fair against top of the line heavy MTBs is missing the point of why someone might want light tanks to begin with.
It’s like complaining that a combat knife can’t chop down trees as effectively as an axe.
The light tanks are designed for terrain and situations where you would not be expecting enemy heavy MBTs. Hell, in the kinds of places where deploying light tanks would make sense, you won’t really be expecting enemy tanks at all, unless they are also light tanks.
Think mountains, swamps, and light to medium wooded areas etc.
For the PLA, Taiwan might be an exception, at least initially, but the 105 is more than enough for Taiwan in any case.
As such, looking at how light tanks might fair against top of the line heavy MTBs is missing the point of why someone might want light tanks to begin with.
It’s like complaining that a combat knife can’t chop down trees as effectively as an axe.
Hendrik_2000
Lieutenant General
New APS with infrared search and millimeter radar according to Hongjian it can stop top attack missile like Javelin or Spike Via LKj86
APS
APS
plawolf
Lieutenant General
Hardly a criticism of those specific design, but most APS, but their nature, are lightly or not armoured.
In the future, as such systems proliferate, we might see much greater co-ordination between ATGM teams and snipers/general infantry, with the latter using small arms to take out the sensors on the APS do allow the missile teams to hit the tanks after.
That would further highlight the need for armour to have organic infantry support, especially in urban battlefields.
In the future, as such systems proliferate, we might see much greater co-ordination between ATGM teams and snipers/general infantry, with the latter using small arms to take out the sensors on the APS do allow the missile teams to hit the tanks after.
That would further highlight the need for armour to have organic infantry support, especially in urban battlefields.
TerraN_EmpirE
Tyrant King
Most APS Equipped armor have some consideration for Top attack missiles. Either a Soft kill APS partner or the ability to traverse the APS launcher. Generally the preferred though it to Soft kill as the ATGM requires a guidance to home in for the kill.
OF Course APS system can have issues with Organic infantry. These systems often employ counter measures that are based on Fragmentation or Explosive effects making them highly effective anti personal weapons.
Or use of more ATGM to swarm attack the Target. because of the Way these systems are built and operate they have a limitation on the number of countermeasures that normally maxes out at 2-4 covering an arc that is either a quarter or half the vehicle. I mean if you are dealing with a T72 upgraded with Arena. Once the first countermeasure has been fired that side of the Tank is open for attack this is a limitation of Fixed counter measure systems, They are basically a outgrowth of Reactive armor tiles with the same flaw Once fired that protection is gone.
Trophy takes a couple seconds to reload and can only have 2 launchers with 4 countermeasures and because of the Way it works you cannot allow overlap due to the fact that the system can damage the Tank as such behind the launcher there is a built in metal shield to stop "Back Splash" from the countermeasure.
Iron fist, Akkor and the KAPS have 2 countermeasures per station in theory though each station can cover a 360* arc of the host vehicle but in practice military vehicle roof lines are a busy place often with accessory weapons, crew hatches, commander Copulas, Optics and other goodies that can get in the way of a APS system or that you don't want open when firing off a Countermeasure.
These as well as other issues create holes in the protection optimally these holes line up with the strongest parts of the vehicle. Like the reason the Abrams Tusk doesn't add ERA to the front of the tank, If you already have the Thick composite armor and DU Mesh there to take an attack.
The only system Anywhere near reality that in theory might be able to take more than a swarm of ATGM fired on one side would be either Raytheon Quick kill or SAAB LEDS as both used a VLS type launcher system firing a missile to intercept and LEDS 150 ( other versions may very) atleast has 6 countermeasures per launcher.
D
Deleted member 13312
Guest
Though looking at it from a offensive point of view, how effective would be a matter of circumstances, most APS uses a shotgun-like blast at close quarters to defeat the projectile. And even the smallest anti tank weaponry will have a range of at least half a kilometer, it will be unlikely the vehicle in question would find many situations in which its APS can be utilized in such a manner as it would have to drive up right next to them.
Then there is the issue of friendly fire as well, many APS systems are designed to reduce collateral damage to allied troops and vehicles in the surrounding area. How successful they are is another matter entirely, but the point is that these systems are design with a non-lethal nature in mind. So in return, a system that is designed to be non-lethal at the start can hardly be selectively lethal.
TerraN_EmpirE
Tyrant King
Viktor, I am not saying they are intended to be anti personal. I am saying that if you happen to be dismounted infantry operating close to a armored vehicle with a Hard kill ASP and one fired it's not a good day.
The projectiles used as countermeasures are operating based off methods of anti personal weapons. IE blast fragmentation.
Although most APS pay lip service to reducing collateral damage they tend to impose rules on proximity between troops and operating conditions.
They are not intended to be lethal but then again neither is a building demolition. If everything goes as planned no one gets hurt but if someone is in the blast zone it gets very ugly.
The projectiles used as countermeasures are operating based off methods of anti personal weapons. IE blast fragmentation.
Although most APS pay lip service to reducing collateral damage they tend to impose rules on proximity between troops and operating conditions.
They are not intended to be lethal but then again neither is a building demolition. If everything goes as planned no one gets hurt but if someone is in the blast zone it gets very ugly.