And the Z-20 would provide even more capability than the Z-15 in a helo the same size as the Ka-28. Your attempt to create a sense of "urgency" in the PLAN's need to acquire replacement helicopters for the Z-9 may not actually be shared by the PLAN itself. And what do you even mean milspec is no problem? Of course milspec is no problem but this also means that a milspec Z-15 is NOT in fact ready for production "RIGHT NOW". Even worse for you is that the Z-15 is not completely indigenized and would be subject to embargo if any of its foreign subsystems were used for military purposes. It may eventually become indigenized and militarized, but the likelihood of it being the next PLAN naval helicopter is exceedingly low IMO. It is also totally ridiculous to say that the Z-20 is a "pie in the sky", as if to insinuate that this helicopter may or may not be an actual helicopter program. It IS an actual program and it WILL enter service, I'd guess in the next few years, and a navalized version a few years after that.
Z-8 and Z-18 transport helicopter - family & versions
- Thread starter Costas 240GD
- Start date
Hendrik_2000
Lieutenant General
Z15 is joint venture between French and China so it should be NO problem
It is not the first time that China used French design. Z9 is a copy of french Dauphin AC 365 Yet no one can prevent China from using it
Licensing only a problem if the licensor can withheld a critical piece of equipment that no one else can manufactured
The same with engine it is joint venture meaning intellectual property of both company
As long as China can fabricate the engine who care
Z20 wll take another 3-5 years before it is operational. A long time.
ASW warfare is China weakest link and the lack of medium weight Heli is the main cause.
With possible conflict in SCS IT IS URGENT!. they already mas produced Y8Q and type 56 but where is the med size Heli?
It is not the first time that China used French design. Z9 is a copy of french Dauphin AC 365 Yet no one can prevent China from using it
Licensing only a problem if the licensor can withheld a critical piece of equipment that no one else can manufactured
The same with engine it is joint venture meaning intellectual property of both company
As long as China can fabricate the engine who care
Z20 wll take another 3-5 years before it is operational. A long time.
ASW warfare is China weakest link and the lack of medium weight Heli is the main cause.
With possible conflict in SCS IT IS URGENT!. they already mas produced Y8Q and type 56 but where is the med size Heli?
Z9 is a licensed copy of the Dauphin allowed to China BEFORE 1989. A joint venture does not mean every last part is produced in China or is dual intellectual property with France. If the Z-15 uses a rotor designed and made in France or a flight computer designed and made in Germany or landing gear designed and made in the UK, then the Z-15 is NOT militarizable until the Chinese military can make an equivalent domestic part and replace the foreign part with it. As long as China can fabricate the engine.... people still care, unless you personally have the knowledge to fly an engine into the air without the rest of the helicopter. I would like to see that please thanks. Yes ASW is a weak link of the PLAN but you have not in any way, shape, or form been able to demonstrate that your claimed personal sense of urgency to replace the Z-9 is the same as the PLAN's sense of urgency to replace the Z-9.
Hendrik_2000
Lieutenant General
AC 352 Fly what in 2009 with Pratt PT6C-76E engine. That is 7 years ahead of Z15 with WZ16. Why China wait that long? Because she wait for WZ16 to be ready. that should tell you that they plan to indigenize the whole AC 352 project
By now Avicopter should have the capacity to design, fabricate all the helicopter component with no problem
They can easily substitute any imported avionic, landing gear,radar etc
Z9 is license product but the license since long expired
by theory they should stop production of Z9 But China didn't stop production and Eurocopter did complain but do nothing
In 2002, Harbin obtained Chinese certification for the new H410A variant of the Z-9, which featured more powerful engines; Eurocopter issued official objections to Harbin's decision to continue production in spite of the license-production agreement having expired, leading to a period of highly sensitive international negotiations to resolve the dispute.
As to urgency the neocon is beating the war drum right now
By now Avicopter should have the capacity to design, fabricate all the helicopter component with no problem
They can easily substitute any imported avionic, landing gear,radar etc
Z9 is license product but the license since long expired
by theory they should stop production of Z9 But China didn't stop production and Eurocopter did complain but do nothing
In 2002, Harbin obtained Chinese certification for the new H410A variant of the Z-9, which featured more powerful engines; Eurocopter issued official objections to Harbin's decision to continue production in spite of the license-production agreement having expired, leading to a period of highly sensitive international negotiations to resolve the dispute.
As to urgency the neocon is beating the war drum right now
Maybe. What it tells me at minimum is that the Z-15 is not ready for the Chinese military "RIGHT NOW".
And? Eurocopter did nothing because there was nothing they could do because China was already locally building the thing. This isn't rocket science here.
Neocons beat war drums for breakfast, lunch, and dinner. Who cares? Again, you have provided no evidence of any kind whatsoever that your claimed sense of urgency about replacing the Z-9 is the same as the PLAN's sense of urgency.
Hendrik_2000
Lieutenant General
H175 already received their EASA certification in 2014. H175 with Ardiden3C engine aka WZ16 has been tested since 2015
They already sell the H175 for paying customer
It is exactly the same design, the same manufacturing procedure. the same QA/QC as AC352 aka W15. I believe EASA testing procedure is even more stringent than their Chinese counterpart
It is design to meet sea stage 6 condition for offshore operation
Yeah it is ready RIGHT NOW!
ITAR of US can't stop China from using it for the military because China own the design and if the French refuse to supplied the component. China just built their own.Yeah there is nothing they can do
n 4 December 2009, the EC175 prototype made its unofficial first flight; the official of the prototype was on 17 December 2009 in , France. A two-year delivery delay was encountered, partly due to certification issues with the rotorcraft's Helinix avionics suite. The (EASA) were originally expected to issue for the EC175 sometime in 2013; this was formally received in January 2014. In September 2015, Avicopter publicly revealed their first AC352 prototype. In December 2015, flight tests of the powerplant were performed using an H175 prototype.
The H175 was designed to exceed EASA CS-29 crashworthiness requirements. It is capable of performing full Category A dual-pilot operation; additionally, it possesses 6 capability, and can be equipped with two oversized 18-passenger life rafts and an emergency floatation system.
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No, it is not. Modifying this for the military involves more than an internet poster's caps lock key turned on. Mil-speccing the Z-15 would involve numerous changes to the design and manufacturing of this helicopter. Software changes, build quality, durability, EMP resistance, corrosion resistance, etc., right down to the kind of nuts, bolts, and welds would have to be upped to military standards that are not present for a civilian version. We're talking years of certifications and retesting. So no, it is not ready RIGHT NOW!
It's a lost cause. I went through about a page of this same kind of back and forth with him using more or less the same talking points you're using, and he just comes back with the idea that AC352 is somehow more mature than Z-20 and straight up copies a wikipedia page as if that is meaningful in any way.
MwRYum
Major
Mil-spec the H175 / Z-15 ain't as easy as because the components have done so then the whole thing is automatically certified as such - necessary modifications are made to the whole design, re-spec and re-tested, then first flight as a new model follow by certification trials for it and itself only.
In comparison, Z-20 is mil-speced since day one, and this is the 3rd year of its flight testing (to the day, actually!), so if you want to talk about which one is the real pie in the sky, Z-15 is by all acount, no competition there, because Z-15 haven't even a baseline militarised version to speak of. Admit it, Z-15 just got its baseline civilian model first flew a few days ago, by the time it reach certification the Z-20 would already in FRP for a few years and PLA/PLAAF has at least a full operational squadron of Z-20s.
Hendrik_2000
Lieutenant General
I work in nuclear industry I don't think there is any industry that is more stringent than nuclear industry
Mil spec is nothing compare to nuclear industry
It all matter to documentation, QA/QC, material verification, calculation, Test etc. The same commercial product make the same Nuclear grade product. It is more expensive because of documentation
But Harbin has been designing mil spec Helicopter for years
So it should have no problem
I work in military industry too and one side of the factory make Diesel Locomotive and the other side make military equipment . the same people , the factory side by side
What test that is so special that it need design recertification Tell me!
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