Z-21/Z-X heavy attack helicopter

The 30 mm you see on Western helicopters is not a high velocity 30 mm. It is the lower energy 30 x 113 mm cartridge. China has a single 30 mm cartridge in service. It is the 30 x 165 mm Russian.

A gun that is using a high velocity 30 mm would be heavy. I only know of the Russian designs who used such a gun on a helicopter. Some tend to be forward aspect only too (The Ka-50's gun for example). I don't know why they have such guns on their helos. It probably has to do with their concept of employment. The Soviets, and by extension, modern Russia liked climb, approach while hitting, run tactics. The helicopter climbs, spots the enemy, starts to fly on it firing its rockets and autocannon, and then runs away.

Western militaries has stopped to use such tactics after Vietnam. Mobility and ATGM driven tactics define Western attack helicopters. And considering how unsurvivable helos are, even the current Western doctrine is probably outdated. The Russian one? Well, they have been mostly utilizing their attack helicopters as makeshift MRLs that fire suboptimal rockets for that task.

I don't think China will include a high-velocity 30 mm gun on a helicopter. It doesn't make much sense. I also don't think they will introduce a medium-velocity 30 mm just for a single platform. It would be different if they had planned such a cartridge for C-UAS anyway. But have we heard of such a thing? Furthermore is there much 23 mm HE isn't enough but 30 mm HE is?

That is because of MANPADS and short range air defenses. The solution to me is quite simple, you get better sensors and weapons which are able to attack just out of range, preferably you get weapons you can fire and forget as well. To avoid hovering for long periods.
In theory the Mi-28NM and Ka-52M can operate outside MANPADS range just fine with their ATGMs.

gelgoog said:

That is because of MANPADS and short range air defenses. The solution to me is quite simple, you get better sensors and weapons which are able to attack just out of range, preferably you get weapons you can fire and forget as well. To avoid hovering for long periods.
In theory the Mi-28NM and Ka-52M can operate outside MANPADS range just fine with their ATGMs.

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It works only when warfare is positional. Otherwise, manpads or pop-up threats happen everywhere, sometimes right in front of you(or behind you).

Cloud_Nine_ said:

I for one is still hopeful that, due to all these new weight savings and new internal space, the new attack helo will have something like Mi-28's dual-feed 30mm

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the last thing you should do when developed 30mm gun for new gunship is follow russian mi-28 footstep
the damn thing big heavy , inaccurate and only have 250 round ready to fire

meanwhile AH-64 carry 1200 round same caliber

polati said:

Why not a 30mm gun though? Less ammo for bigger rounds with more HE?

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maybe lack of tech ?
30mm gun for attack heli need to be light enough and the heli itself need to have space inside to carry ammo
otherwise you stuck with russian mi-28 design damn thing weight 120kg , carry ammo box outside only have 250 round compare to 60kg m230 on ah64 feed from inside 1200 round

The Russians have no shortage of lower caliber and lower propellant guns. They probably felt they needed that much hitting power for the gun to be viable in a modern environment simple as that. Lower powder charge = shorter range and less penetration.

votran said:

maybe lack of tech ?
30mm gun for attack heli need to be light enough

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Z-21 have 50 percent of its body weight made with T800 high grade composite carbon fiber.

votran said:

maybe lack of tech ?
30mm gun for attack heli need to be light enough and the heli itself need to have space inside to carry ammo
otherwise you stuck with russian mi-28 design damn thing weight 120kg , carry ammo box outside only have 250 round compare to 60kg m230 on ah64 feed from inside 1200 round

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I think current tech can work to force in a high velo 30mm, but is maybe not desirable because using the gun in anti ground role jeopardizes the chopper a lot.

High velo 23mm is ideal for a balance of weight and strong anti air performance. It should in theory be a better choice against drones/other rotary craft than low velo rounds such as those from the m230, and the Russian high velo 30mm only succeeds in overkilling drones at the cost of increased weight and lower ammo.

sunnymaxi said:

so you seriously believe, China don't have tech just to put 30mm gun on Heli ??

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Think he means a general statement, that there doesn't exist better tech to enable larger guns to work efficiently.

I don't think the tech doesn't exist, but the optimal trade off with tech might indeed not exist. Like, near everyone has the tech to put a 203mm gun on a tank. But people don't do it because it isn't worth it. So you can say the tech "doesn't exist".

Index said:

Think he means a general statement, that there doesn't exist better tech to enable larger guns to work efficiently.

I don't think the tech doesn't exist, but the optimal trade off with tech might indeed not exist. Like, near everyone has the tech to put a 203mm gun on a tank. But people don't do it because it isn't worth it. So you can say the tech "doesn't exist".

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yeah i misunderstood.. thanks for the correction