Z-21/Z-X heavy attack helicopter

Is there any reason for it to have a gun?

Even infantry with MANPADs can threaten a helicopter at gun range. If it moves to all missile, that slot can be used for another cluster rocket launcher.

wssth0306 said:

I do wonder the doctrine role that required this new 10t class attack helicopter , the whole design seems to indicate the thought of good enough now , mature platforms and mature technologies. Does PLA army aviation need it that badly to fulfill a role that Z-10 can't ?

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There's a need for such platform all these times, what hampered the R&D is primarily the availability of engine.

The development history and timeline of this thing is going to be interesting as hell when we finally get the details. I fully expect the PLA to be quizzing the Russians on all of their experiences operating attack helicopters in a modern battlefield and trying to incorporate as many lessons into the Z21 as they possibly can.

The fact that there is a prototype flying now means the thing was in advanced design stage before the start of the Ukraine war, so there may be limitations on how many changes could be made without needing to start again from scratch.

I think we can conclude that the Russians have given up on ultra low altitude penetration assaults with their attack helos after repeated losses and now settled in long range stand-off attack for high value targets like armour, and rocket pod spam for dug in infantry.

The biggest implication for the Z10 and Z21 is the need for more payload to carry more of the longer ranged ATGMs.

One area where I expect and hope the PLA to learn from the Russians is in the crew ejection tech from the Ka52.

I also expect the Z21 to be naval capable from the get-go. Not only because it will need to have cross strait capability as standard, it will also be very useful for helping the PLAN defend against the small UUAV swarm attacks that have so plagued the Russians.

externallisting said:

Fun ņumbers but high altitude guzzles fuel. If China thinks their engines are on par with the Whitney’s then I assume they’ll pump these out. Engines were an issue iirc since before the z10, hence the variations of exhaust we’ve seen since the original z10

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The Z-10 engine is not a problem, as mentioned in the documentary on the development of Z-10, Z-10 engine achieved the goals set during their preliminary research. The real problem with Z-10 is that the body is overweight.

This helicopter could use some relatively cheap laser guided rockets which can attack targets outside MANPADS range.
It also needs some kind of milimeter wave or similar missile which can strike armored vehicles and small boats. Which can operate outside the range of the Taiwanese TC-2 ground based air defense (i.e. more than 30 km range). Plus some kind of largish cruise missile. And a loitering munition of some sort.

Delete, inaccurate photo

ACuriousPLAFan said:

Here's another CGI. Made by @九月飞鹰001 on Weibo.

View attachment 127117

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This is Z-10.

Red tsunami said:

This is Z-10.

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Ah, damn. Thanks for the correction, will delete.

MwRYum said:

There's a need for such platform all these times, what hampered the R&D is primarily the availability of engine.

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yes and no , back in 1960s when attack helicopters immerged , AA missiles was still in there infancy, there main job is fill the role of high mobility, long hang time direct fire platform from close, basically a flying tank. So they were designed accordingly ,they were nimble and has some armor against AA guns .
Fast forward 60 years , AA missiles are very where these days ,close air support is problematic at best , a bit suicidal at worst. I wonder why the PLA wanted at 2020s to spend recourses to develop 1 PLA went for a none stealth , 10 ton helicopter , that has a cannon.
With that weight class I would thought sensors and stealth will be the priority of design , or if you want to save R&D time , just take the Z20 and strap as much munition it can carry , which PLA did , at least played with the idea.
I would argue that every capability that this new Z-21 can bring , a modified Z-20 with existing Z-19, Z-10 compliment can achieve.
And since the intended goal won't be the complete replacement of Z-10, I have to wonder why .

It like witnessing the development of new attack plane that fills the role of A-10, sure nice to have , but where you going with this.

FairAndUnbiased said:

Is there any reason for it to have a gun?

Even infantry with MANPADs can threaten a helicopter at gun range. If it moves to all missile, that slot can be used for another cluster rocket launcher.

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Targets pop up unexpectedly close. Especially in maneuver warfare, which helicopters are actually built for. For that reason, it's absolutely paramount for helicopter to have a rapid reaction suppression weapon.

Look some early war Russian videos, especially from Hostomel， where attack helicopters cleaned path for assault party. FCS screams "too close" literally non-stop (big cross on HUD). That's especially relevant for the Chinese context - SEA theater is almost defined by landing ops.

Don't treat helicopter like a missile truck(or aircraft). It's a super-fast, completely amphibious AFV that can pop higher when it really needs to.