Z-10 thread

[Blitzo]

Re: the real WZ 10

Mass producing doesn't necessarily mean the problems are completely solved. A lot of times in the military sector, a lot of weapons have to be equipped even if it's not up to standard. The news about short life-span of single crystal blades was from 3 years ago, which is not that long ago. How can you assume that the problem is already solved?

I think the logic is usually that if mass production continues after a delay, that the issues are solved. It is rare to assume otherwise in these situations (just think about production recalls and fixes in every other industry from electronics to toys or food. if there's a delay because of an issue the assumption is that once production resumes, the issue has been dealt with. There is no reason to think differently here, and there's been nothing for us since then to believe otherwise)

Remember the thrust vectored Russian engines used in Indian Su-30 jets? Those engines only have EXPECTED (even on the manual) lifespan of 30 hours as well, which is a joke. Western counterparts usually last for at least more than 1,000 hours, some up to several thousand hours.

Of course even the sub-quality WS-10 could fly, but how long can the engines last?

First of all, I want to say that the 30 hour MTBO number for WS-10 was originally quoted by the washington post. The washington post. And it has been quoted by almost no one else. Yes I am implying that that number shouldn't be taken seriously because it's coming from a not even unreputable source, considering that the MTBO of an engine is no trivial number. (I'd also like to see the 30 hour MTBO for the Al-31 TVC engines on the MKIs, if you have a link)

Second, you need to listen to yourself. Your argument basically boils down to "we've heard nothing of much credibility but because engines are difficult to master and the russians still have troubles with it then we should assume the chinese haven't mastered it either". It's been a while since I did my critical thinking paper but I'm quite sure that's a fallacy of some sort.

As for small scale production, it is indeed easier to control the quality. But only large scale productions could quickly make engineers and technicians learn to improve quality.

Well that basically contradicts what you said earlier, that implied small scale production had equal or more issues than large scale production in quality control

"These things [quality issues] are not easy to solve, both polar bear and uncle yankee struggled for decades before they fully resolved the problems. And this coupled with mass scale production. With China current production scale, it will be even harder with such small production batches"

 

[Franklin]

Re: the real WZ 10

Perhabs Lion and Blitzo are too optimistic, engines is a weakness in China's defence industry and should be recognised as such. The big planes like the C-919 passenger jet and the big transporter Y-20 will first use foreign engines and when the domestic engines will be available only god knows. And whether the WS-15 (180kN) will be mass produced in 10 years time remains to be seen.

However i also think that CottageLV is too pessimestic he said that the engines of the Type 052C and the Type 054A are all imported engines. That is partially true, infact the engines of the Type 052C the MTU Friedrichshafen diesels (Germany) and the DN-80 gas turbines (Ukraine) and the SEMT Pielstick 16 PA6 STC diesels (France) of the Type 054A are all being produced in China under licence legally or illegally. And that also goes for the Rolls Royce Spey Mk202 (UK) for the Xi'an JH-7A. All these deals are based on technology transfer and the technology has been transferred. Infact the only engines that China are directly importing are the AL-31F (J-10/J-11), NPO Saturn D-30KP-2 turbofan (H-6K) and the RD-93 (JF-17, used only by Pakistan). These are the ones i know there maybe others i don't know of. All the other engines are produced in China domestically either through own R&D or through licence production. So when it comes to engines China is much more independent than you think.

Interesting note about the WZ-10 the helicopter has been tested with the Ukrainian build Klimov TV3-117VMA turboshaft, (1636 kW 2194 shp) the same engine that powers the Mi-28 Havoc and it was very succesful. And there was another Russian and Canadian engine in play. All of them were more powerful and reliable than the domestic WZ-9 turboshaft (1000kw 1340shp). But China rejected them all in favour of the domestic engine. This is a political decision. First China wants to be less dependent on foreign engines in her military and the second to give China's turboshaft industry and boost. And i don't know the exact details of the China France cooperation on the WZ-16 (1500kw 1700+shp) it supposed to be a 50/50 deal. If China can produce the WZ-16 on mass after 2014 this will open a new horizon for China's helicopter industry as China now can start designing and building 10 to 15 tons helicopters aka Apache and Black Hawk types that is now so lacking and needed.

 

[asif iqbal]

Re: the real WZ 10

Hey, another fellow biochemist/biophysicist!

I did my PhD in membrane biophysics and biomechanics at Rice University. I was mainly using micropipette aspiration to measure the ability of biological amphiphiles to alter phospholipid membrane mechanical and electrostatic properties. My current focus is spatiotemporal organization of proteins, or lipid rafts, on the plasma membrane.

I was at the 2006 ACS in San Fransisco, but I normally go to the biophysical society and FASEB meetings.

My projects also involve FRET heavily. I am currently using FLIM-FRET to study the stability of protein nanoclusters in the plasma membrane. Unfortunately, no smFRET yet. My main technique is electron microscopy combined with spatial mapping to quantify the dynamics of protein nanoclusters.

OMG!! so simiar

my work is with Nucleic Acids, and the effects of the orientation of the dipoles on FRET efficiency, I published a paper in the National Academy of Sciences in 2008 with Taekjip Ha, who was Steven Chu's PhD student, it was the highlight of my PhD

I cant add in as Pdf its telling me my limit is exceeded so here it is


Orientation dependence in fluorescent energy transfer between Cy3 and Cy5 terminally attached to double-stranded nucleic acids

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

PMID:21889452

do u know Bob Clegg? he does FLIM and hes was external examiner

 

[vesicles]

Re: the real WZ 10

OMG!! so simiar

my work is with Nucleic Acids, and the effects of the orientation of the dipoles on FRET efficiency, I published a paper in the National Academy of Sciences in 2008 with Taekjip Ha, who was Steven Chu's PhD student, it was the highlight of my PhD

I cant add in as Pdf its telling me my limit is exceeded so here it is


Orientation dependence in fluorescent energy transfer between Cy3 and Cy5 terminally attached to double-stranded nucleic acids

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

PMID:21889452

do u know Bob Clegg? he does FLIM and hes was external examiner

Cool stuff! Congratulations on the PNAS publication! Unfortunately, I don't know Bob Clegg. Glad to have another fellow biophysicist on the forum!

 

[CottageLV]

Re: the real WZ 10

Perhabs Lion and Blitzo are too optimistic, engines is a weakness in China's defence industry and should be recognised as such. The big planes like the C-919 passenger jet and the big transporter Y-20 will first use foreign engines and when the domestic engines will be available only god knows. And whether the WS-15 (180kN) will be mass produced in 10 years time remains to be seen.

However i also think that CottageLV is too pessimestic he said that the engines of the Type 052C and the Type 054A are all imported engines. That is partially true, infact the engines of the Type 052C the MTU Friedrichshafen diesels (Germany) and the DN-80 gas turbines (Ukraine) and the SEMT Pielstick 16 PA6 STC diesels (France) of the Type 054A are all being produced in China under licence legally or illegally. And that also goes for the Rolls Royce Spey Mk202 (UK) for the Xi'an JH-7A. All these deals are based on technology transfer and the technology has been transferred. Infact the only engines that China are directly importing are the AL-31F (J-10/J-11), NPO Saturn D-30KP-2 turbofan (H-6K) and the RD-93 (JF-17, used only by Pakistan). These are the ones i know there maybe others i don't know of. All the other engines are produced in China domestically either through own R&D or through licence production. So when it comes to engines China is much more independent than you think.

Interesting note about the WZ-10 the helicopter has been tested with the Ukrainian build Klimov TV3-117VMA turboshaft, (1636 kW 2194 shp) the same engine that powers the Mi-28 Havoc and it was very succesful. And there was another Russian and Canadian engine in play. All of them were more powerful and reliable than the domestic WZ-9 turboshaft (1000kw 1340shp). But China rejected them all in favour of the domestic engine. This is a political decision. First China wants to be less dependent on foreign engines in her military and the second to give China's turboshaft industry and boost. And i don't know the exact details of the China France cooperation on the WZ-16 (1500kw 1700+shp) it supposed to be a 50/50 deal. If China can produce the WZ-16 on mass after 2014 this will open a new horizon for China's helicopter industry as China now can start designing and building 10 to 15 tons helicopters aka Apache and Black Hawk types that is now so lacking and needed.

But the problem is that the current trend in China is wanting to claim everything to be indigenous. I do acknowledge that those engines are domestically assembled, but what's the percentage of domestic parts? Are the single crystal blades domestic? Are the core control units domestic?

I have heard of cases in the past of people buying foreign high tech parts and repack it, claiming it indigenous.

 

[kroko]

Re: the real WZ 10

But the problem is that the current trend in China is wanting to claim everything to be indigenous. I do acknowledge that those engines are domestically assembled, but what's the percentage of domestic parts? Are the single crystal blades domestic? Are the core control units domestic?

I have heard of cases in the past of people buying foreign high tech parts and repack it, claiming it indigenous.

CottageLV,

You know it well that no one in this forum has reliable acess to this information. Just because we dont know for certain doesnt prove or disprove it. Why do you feel the need to always presume on the negative?

. But I just don't like the current netizen culture of bloating facts and overly cocky on current achievements.

Just because you dont like it, doesnt make it right to come to this forum and repeat the same arguments that "where is the proof that it exists?" "what is the percentage of domestic parts?" "It will take a long time". Neither you or anyone in this forum knows for sure the answer. Why do you feel the need to constantly make those questions? You are starting to sound like a troll, you know.

 

[AssassinsMace]

Re: the real WZ 10

For a country in China's position where the US tries to prevent anyone selling anything advanced to China and where Russia like to play games, it would be safe to assume that China must forsee it capable of domestic production for whatever component that is needed or they wouldn't even try. Why build anything if what important component you need most cannot be made or with some level of legitimate confidence seen made in the near future domestically? Europeans would like to do a lot of high tech business with China but cannot because the US says, "No!" So if it's a sign of backwardness that all or some of whatever China says is "domestic" is actually foreign, then Europe must be backward because the US can veto any deal it has with China meaning what Europe develops "domestically" cannot be done without US technology.

 

[CottageLV]

Re: the real WZ 10

CottageLV,

You know it well that no one in this forum has reliable acess to this information. Just because we dont know for certain doesnt prove or disprove it. Why do you feel the need to always presume on the negative?

Just because you dont like it, doesnt make it right to come to this forum and repeat the same arguments that "where is the proof that it exists?" "what is the percentage of domestic parts?" "It will take a long time". Neither you or anyone in this forum knows for sure the answer. Why do you feel the need to constantly make those questions? You are starting to sound like a troll, you know.

The law says all men are innocent unless proven guilty. You can't just presume something and claim it's 100% correct. I believe majority of the members in this forum are highly educated, probably mostly have at least a masters or PHD.

We all know from a scientific point of view, nothing is 100% correct unless it's proven, it still is just an educated guess. But for a lot of the messages coming out of Chinese netizens, they are simply wetdreams. If you read Chinese, I guess you probably don't, you would be amazed at how crazy the Chinese sites are at overly exaggerating the current achievements. Titles of those posts follow the trend of saying "China launching 100,000 ton nuclear aircraft carrier next year" or "China deploying fleet to Okinawa, 7th fleet backed off 1000 nautical miles", the craziest one I have seen are those claiming that China made H-8 bomber, able to reach Mach 2.5 with an airframe resembling the B-2.

As for credibility on the existence of something, J-20 is in test flights, CJ-10 was on the parade. When there's speculation on something that really exists, you can usually get some hints from here and there. You can even find leaked evidences from CCTV to prove their existence. But for WS-15 matching F119's level of performance, is that possible so soon? Don't forget that China was just able to fully copy the 60's RR Spey as recent as few years back. Now China can instantly make something as capable as F119? What are Chinese engineers fed with? Open Sesame? Or do they sleep with Aladdin's magic lamp and have the Ginni as their night light?

Do you really believe in the antiship ballistic missle? If you do, find something credible to support it.

---------- Post added at 02:59 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:46 PM ----------

I would be realistic and confident in knowing that my facts are true, rather than being an idiot blathering all day on baseless presumptions.

 

[vesicles]

Re: the real WZ 10

The law says all men are innocent unless proven guilty. You can't just presume something and claim it's 100% correct. I believe majority of the members in this forum are highly educated, probably mostly have at least a masters or PHD.

We all know from a scientific point of view, nothing is 100% correct unless it's proven, it still is just an educated guess. But for a lot of the messages coming out of Chinese netizens, they are simply wetdreams. If you read Chinese, I guess you probably don't, you would be amazed at how crazy the Chinese sites are at overly exaggerating the current achievements. Titles of those posts follow the trend of saying "China launching 100,000 ton nuclear aircraft carrier next year" or "China deploying fleet to Okinawa, 7th fleet backed off 1000 nautical miles", the craziest one I have seen are those claiming that China made H-8 bomber, able to reach Mach 2.5 with an airframe resembling the B-2.

As for credibility on the existence of something, J-20 is in test flights, CJ-10 was on the parade. When there's speculation on something that really exists, you can usually get some hints from here and there. You can even find leaked evidences from CCTV to prove their existence. But for WS-15 matching F119's level of performance, is that possible so soon? Don't forget that China was just able to fully copy the 60's RR Spey as recent as few years back. Now China can instantly make something as capable as F119? What are Chinese engineers fed with? Open Sesame? Or do they sleep with Aladdin's magic lamp and have the Ginni as their night light?

Do you really believe in the antiship ballistic missle? If you do, find something credible to support it.

---------- Post added at 02:59 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:46 PM ----------

I would be realistic and confident in knowing that my facts are true, rather than being an idiot blathering all day on baseless presumptions.

Hmmm... I'm confused. So "all men are innocent unless proven guilty". If this is what you truly believe, then you should firmly believe that all Chinese products claimed by the Chinese to be 100% indigenous should be just that, 100% indigenous, until proven otherwise.

Yet, what you are arguing all this time should be "all men are guilty unless proven innocence" since, without any evidence one way or another, you assume all Chinese indigenous products have questionable origin until someone somewhere can show you otherwise.

As for the questionable speed of WS15, the learning curve for someone catching up is vastly different from someone making the initial invention. the theory has matured and experience can be learned. So the development phase can be much quicker for someone playing catch-up.

 

[kroko]

Re: the real WZ 10

The law says all men are innocent unless proven guilty. You can't just presume something and claim it's 100% correct. I believe majority of the members in this forum are highly educated, probably mostly have at least a masters or PHD.

We all know from a scientific point of view, nothing is 100% correct unless it's proven, it still is just an educated guess. But for a lot of the messages coming out of Chinese netizens, they are simply wetdreams. If you read Chinese, I guess you probably don't, you would be amazed at how crazy the Chinese sites are at overly exaggerating the current achievements. Titles of those posts follow the trend of saying "China launching 100,000 ton nuclear aircraft carrier next year" or "China deploying fleet to Okinawa, 7th fleet backed off 1000 nautical miles", the craziest one I have seen are those claiming that China made H-8 bomber, able to reach Mach 2.5 with an airframe resembling the B-2.

cottage, what part of my last post you didnt get? did i ever said something presumed is 100% correct? As for chinese forums, i dont frequent them (im no chinese) so i dont know whats going on there. But if its true, then what? does that bother you? then dont frequent those forums. Simple as that. Otherwise what do you want to do? engage in a quest to convince PLA fanboys of the error of their ways? go ahead. Just dont come here and keep saying: "where is the proof that it exists?" "what is the percentage of domestic parts?" "It will take a long time". what do you gain with it? You dont know for sure, no one knows. its getting annoying.

you can usually get some hints from here and there

what kind of "hints" ? i guess rumours, isnt it? After all, even the best sources on PLA fail, you see.