Z-10 thread

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iBBz

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This is an upgraded variant of an existing airframe/fuselage -- if you are adding in packages like new sensors (AESA MAWS, ESM on the fuselage), countermeasures (DIRCM on the stubwings), and armour pads (engine and cockpit adjacent), you aren't going to tailor and redesign the fuselage for that.
You don't have to redesign the fuselage or airframe, but you certainly can do a better job than boxes and pyramids.

Placing the DIRCM at the bottom of the fuselage couldhave been feasible, but based on the size of the overall DIRCM pod on top of the stub wing, it is apparent that they take up meaningful volume and it is very possible that Z-10 as an airframe does not have that sort of excess volume on the bottom of the fuselage (it is a 7t aircraft after all, lighter than a AH-64, Mi-28 or Ka-52 class helicopter) -- and alternatively if it were to be placed protruding out from the bottom of the fuselage then it would protrude out and potentially offer unacceptable clearance to the ground.

Furthermore, being mounted on top of the stub wings may also offer benefits in terms of providing greater coverage and also greater ease of access for maintenance. One might ask "why not mount the DIRCM package more lateral on the tip of the stub wing rather than on top of the stub wing" -- well the most immediate natural answer would be that being mounted on top of the stub wing reduces the span of the stub wings, and more importantly mounted on top of the stub wing offers greater structural support than having to mount it on the tips where they would have to support themselves (again, the ability of the stub wings to structurally support payloads or pods in this case is dependent on its structural bearing capability which in turn is dependent on the aircraft's overall MTOW as designed, which is lighter than Apache, Mi-28, Ka-52 etc)
The solutions for all these issues are endless. The PLA likely just want to reduce the price as much as possible without sacrificing too much performance to in order to increase sales.

There's also the fact that being mounted on top of the stub wing and looking like there are "boxes with sharp edges" literally doesn't matter.
Yes It does. A good example of how big of a deal drag is, would be the Ka-52 retractable landing gear. The front gear have a large optical suite infront of them and don't have a door and the wheel doesn't even fully retract. The rear landing gear do have doors and semisunk pockets for the wheels where they sit exposed. Despite all of these imperfections, it still improves drag and reduces moment of inertia to the point where the designers are willing to indroduce all these mechanical complexities and points of failures into the equation.

And if it's because you dislike the aesthetics of it, then well, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. And maybe care a bit less about aesthetics to begin with.
I has nothing to do with aesthetics, just efficiency.

You keep making some odd complaints and questions, like wanting the PLAGF's truck SPHs to be fully automatic, despite obvious answers as to why that was not pursued nor feasible.
At least, if you want to ask these questions can you not make it sound like your assumption is a natural and obvious conclusion, and to put some effort into the question?
There's nothing wrong with constructive criticism and discussing design elements in a forum where its relevant. Everyone ends up learning something from it.

.... Frankly, for a 7t helicopter, the Z-10ME as depicted is rather well equipped. A mast mounted radar, enhanced ESM, AESA MAWS integrated with DIRCM, retaining upturned turboshaft exhausts for IR suppression, and a reinforced armour package, all with the usual turret, four hardpoints -- that is probably about as much as you can squeeze out of a 7t helicopter with contemporary technology, and frankly there should be little that one should complain about with the package as a whole. If anything it's impressive they were able to put everything together in a single aircraft like this.
I never objected to this part. I agree, the Z-10ME looks like a very deadly attack helicopter with proper armament and plenty of modern sensors.

That's just because they don't care much about English showing at defense expos (regardless of whether it's domestic at somewhere like Zhuhai or abroad), that has no bearing on the integration of the subsystems on the helicopter itself, which we've already seen in flight test years back. You can be assured the integration of the subsystems would be done with regular due diligence of any other product.
This is not a valid excuse. It's not okay to misspell sentences on a precision machine like this.

Is it correct to write "at towing"?
Answer:- Yes, it is correct to use the preposition “at” in the context of towing. When you tow a vehicle, there are specific considerations and safety measures to keep in mind. (example of similar words - at playing, at swimming etc).

"When Manipulate" (you write manipulating only if when ther is presence of "is", "are", "were", "will be" etc, When you are manipulating).
ma·nipu·late
[məˈnɪpjʊleɪt]
VERB
  1. handle or control (a tool, mechanism, information, etc.) in a skilful manner:
    "he manipulated the dials of the set"
    • alter, edit, or move (text or data) on a computer:
      "the pupils can manipulate the data or screen image"
    • examine or treat (a part of the body) by feeling or moving it with the hand:
      "this system of healing is based on manipulating the ligaments of the spine"
Both sentences are incorrect.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
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You don't have to redesign the fuselage or airframe, but you certainly can do a better job than boxes and pyramids.

Would you prefer a half sphere with a similar footprint/size that protrudes out to a similar degree?


The solutions for all these issues are endless. The PLA likely just want to reduce the price as much as possible without sacrificing too much performance to in order to increase sales.

Then shouldn't this be a case for praise or at least be perceived as reasonable???


Yes It does. A good example of how big of a deal drag is, would be the Ka-52 retractable landing gear. The front gear have a large optical suite infront of them and don't have a door and the wheel doesn't even fully retract. The rear landing gear do have doors and semisunk pockets for the wheels where they sit exposed. Despite all of these imperfections, it still improves drag and reduces moment of inertia to the point where the designers are willing to indroduce all these mechanical complexities and points of failures into the equation.

No, how about you count the number of modern attack helicopters which have retractable landing gear?
The whole reason why attack helicopters and helicopters in general are more "bulbous" or "blocky" with the attachments for their pods and upgrades on their fuselage is that their aerodynamic profile is less of a concern than having the internal space and volume to accommodate those subsystems.

If you pursue newer, higher speed helicopters like tiltrotors or compound+pusher prop then naturally you will want to have things like retractable landing gear and you will aim to be more optimized for aerodynamic performance and minimizing drag.

But even then, if you're an attack helicopter you're going to have to accept you'll probably be carrying payloads externally so it's just the cost of doing business.


I has nothing to do with aesthetics, just efficiency.

Okay, and what about the positioning of the DIRCM seems inefficient to you, in terms of aerodynamics/drag?

To me, it seems rather reasonable -- it's quite apparent that the DIRCM pod uses up substantial volume and should have meaningful weight to it. The fuselage of the aircraft has limited space and the helicopter is of a medium weight category, restricting how much of the DIRCM you can actually place "inside" the fuselage internally as it will cut into other internals of the aircraft.
You need the DIRCM housings to be in a good position to provide coverage around the aircraft, and you also need them to ideally be in a position that is accessible for maintenance.

Given all of that, positioning them on the stub wings seems like one of the only reasonable places to put it, and whatever minor disadvantage it has in contributing to drag is accepted due to the space/weight factors that the DIRCM system imposes to begin with, as well as acknowledging that the overall aircraft already has so many external protrusions to begin with especially in a loaded state.

However, even then we can observe there's likely been efforts to mitigate aerodynamic drag despite its minor contribution to the aircraft as a whole in a loaded state; I'm sure you've noticed how the front of the DIRCM pod is configured like a pyramid, "spiked" almost? That should likely be done for purposes of drag, otherwise they would've just kept it as a square front.



There's nothing wrong with constructive criticism and discussing design elements in a forum where its relevant. Everyone ends up learning something from it.


I never objected to this part. I agree, the Z-10ME looks like a very deadly attack helicopter with proper armament and plenty of modern sensors.

In that case, my constructive criticism for you is that you should have asked first is "is the DIRCM on Z-10ME likely to be a significant contributor to drag for the aircraft" to begin with, rather than making it sound like it is an accepted belief/consensus when you asked the question.



This is not a valid excuse. It's not okay to misspell sentences on a precision machine like this.

I think you are a bit naive and you have yet to see enough Chinese products shown at defense expos.
 

by78

General
One more from the Singapore Airshow.

53550573520_fbd15e50eb_k.jpg
 

iBBz

Junior Member
Registered Member
Would you prefer a half sphere with a similar footprint/size that protrudes out to a similar degree?
That wouldn't be possible, the smoother shapes would have to be larger than the square ones unless they start making bespoke sensors, which is too expensive. If radio transparency is required, then even more expenses and a larger number of parts. Here's a quick model.

0.jpg
0-1.jpg
0-2.jpg
Then shouldn't this be a case for praise or at least be perceived as reasonable???
If it saved alot of money, then sure.

No, how about you count the number of modern attack helicopters which have retractable landing gear?
Irrelevant to the topic.

The whole reason why attack helicopters and helicopters in general are more "bulbous" or "blocky" with the attachments for their pods and upgrades on their fuselage is that their aerodynamic profile is less of a concern than having the internal space and volume to accommodate those subsystems.


If you pursue newer, higher speed helicopters like tiltrotors or compound+pusher prop then naturally you will want to have things like retractable landing gear and you will aim to be more optimized for aerodynamic performance and minimizing drag.
Any increase in drag means lower speed, range, lift, higher stress and faster wear of mechanical components, so it should definitely be a concern when designing any helicopter since all these elements are directly linked to survivability and response time. Internally housing the sensors, means lower chances of them getting hit, which also means higher survivability.

But even then, if you're an attack helicopter you're going to have to accept you'll probably be carrying payloads externally so it's just the cost of doing business.
At least the armament is not that draggy and mounted in the right direction.

Okay, and what about the positioning of the DIRCM seems inefficient to you, in terms of aerodynamics/drag?

To me, it seems rather reasonable -- it's quite apparent that the DIRCM pod uses up substantial volume and should have meaningful weight to it. The fuselage of the aircraft has limited space and the helicopter is of a medium weight category, restricting how much of the DIRCM you can actually place "inside" the fuselage internally as it will cut into other internals of the aircraft.
You need the DIRCM housings to be in a good position to provide coverage around the aircraft, and you also need them to ideally be in a position that is accessible for maintenance.

Given all of that, positioning them on the stub wings seems like one of the only reasonable places to put it, and whatever minor disadvantage it has in contributing to drag is accepted due to the space/weight factors that the DIRCM system imposes to begin with, as well as acknowledging that the overall aircraft already has so many external protrusions to begin with especially in a loaded state.

However, even then we can observe there's likely been efforts to mitigate aerodynamic drag despite its minor contribution to the aircraft as a whole in a loaded state; I'm sure you've noticed how the front of the DIRCM pod is configured like a pyramid, "spiked" almost? That should likely be done for purposes of drag, otherwise they would've just kept it as a square front.
In that case, my constructive criticism for you is that you should have asked first is "is the DIRCM on Z-10ME likely to be a significant contributor to drag for the aircraft" to begin with, rather than making it sound like it is an accepted belief/consensus when you asked the question.
I was talking about everything mounted externally as a whole, in case you forgot, not just the DIRCM. Non of them add too much drag, but as a whole, they most likely do. It does look like they tried to reduce drag on all parts mounted externally. I never said they didn't. I said externally mounting parts add drag and waste energy, and that more could have been done to help mitigate it. It was just an opinion of mine. It was not an attempt to trash the product or a claim that the PLA are incapable of designing good product.


I think you are a bit naive and you have yet to see enough Chinese products shown at defense expos.
And here I thought this was a one-off.
 

tankphobia

Senior Member
Registered Member
If you compare the base version of Z-10, it's way less tricked out than the Z-10ME or even recent upgraded versions, from PLA perspective, if they're already working on a new heavy attack helicopter it would not make sense to substantially change the design of the supersctructure of the aircraft to integrate new capabilities, as it would remove part interchangibility with older Z-10 varients.

With this current method they can still upgrade base version to newer standard by tacking modules on top of the base model. Which would not be possible if they were to make major modifications to the body. The money saved is better spent on a clean sheet design which could integrate all those features by default.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
If you compare the base version of Z-10, it's way less tricked out than the Z-10ME or even recent upgraded versions, from PLA perspective, if they're already working on a new heavy attack helicopter it would not make sense to substantially change the design of the supersctructure of the aircraft to integrate new capabilities, as it would remove part interchangibility with older Z-10 varients.

With this current method they can still upgrade base version to newer standard by tacking modules on top of the base model. Which would not be possible if they were to make major modifications to the body. The money saved is better spent on a clean sheet design which could integrate all those features by default.

Bingo, future-proofing and ease of maintenance/repair is a core consideration here.

It might not look pretty, but with the current bolt-on solution, you are not limited by volume or shape (within reason of course) like you would with an external fairing. So you can pick and mix parts and components off-the-shelf to quickly develop counters to new and emerging threats and rapidly deploy them as needed.

Also, if a new model of the system is developed, you could potentially just ship the modules plus instructions to the front and your average frontline mechs would be able to upgrade the helicopters out in the field instead of needing to send the helicopters back to deports or factories.

Similar applies to battlefield repairs, where you can access the units from many more angles and directions as you would be able to with a more integrated approach, so it should allow you to make repairs and compete maintenance much quicker, which could be a significant factor for sortie rates and combat persistence.

Another less obvious but potentially more decisive factor could be strategic concealment.

Retrofitting existing assets with combat specific upgrades and add-ons would be an obvious lead indicator to possible military action. Especially for the PLA, who have historically gone for a more bare bones approach to acquisitions, instead of going for all the bells and whistles as others.

If it was decided to specifically make such add-ons field upgradeable, once software and internal wiring and other changes have been done at the factory, then that gives the PLA the ability to deploy and train with the new equipment without risk telegraphing their strategic preparations.

Real world examples of this include the APS turrets PLA APCs were deployed with in reaction to Pelosi’s recent uninvited visit. Those are things never before or since seen, so it shows that the PLA is very good at keeping things secret. And part of how they achieve that is in investing in add-ons that are easily added and removed by troops and mechs in the field.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
That wouldn't be possible, the smoother shapes would have to be larger than the square ones unless they start making bespoke sensors, which is too expensive. If radio transparency is required, then even more expenses and a larger number of parts. Here's a quick model.

View attachment 125922
View attachment 125923
View attachment 125924

My overall point is that in theory there are always alternative ways of designing and positioning such a housing.


If it saved alot of money, then sure.

What makes you think it didn’t?

Or rather, you should be asking what additional costs would your changes have to experience?

Irrelevant to the topic.

Fully relevant to the topic, because if you’re wanting to use Ka-52 as an example of a contemporary attack helicopter with landing gear which retracts for purposes of reducing drag, you have to acknowledge how common or uncommon it is for contemporary attack helicopters to have such a feature as well.

Any increase in drag means lower speed, range, lift, higher stress and faster wear of mechanical components, so it should definitely be a concern when designing any helicopter since all these elements are directly linked to survivability and response time. Internally housing the sensors, means lower chances of them getting hit, which also means higher survivability.
You seem to have entirely ignored what I wrote in that part of my reply, because it was another way of explaining that an increase in drag for an aircraft like an attack helicopter is of relatively minor consequence relative to the SWAP-C of an attack helicopter airframe and the overall structural ability to carry more weight.


At least the armament is not that draggy and mounted in the right direction.


The DIRCM seems mounted in the right direction to me as well.

As for being less draggy, that depends what external payload you’re comparing it to.


I was talking about everything mounted externally as a whole, in case you forgot, not just the DIRCM. Non of them add too much drag, but as a whole, they most likely do. It does look like they tried to reduce drag on all parts mounted externally. I never said they didn't. I said externally mounting parts add drag and waste energy, and that more could have been done to help mitigate it. It was just an opinion of mine. It was not an attempt to trash the product or a claim that the PLA are incapable of designing good product.

I am aware, and I am also talking about everything mounted externally as a whole.

I am saying that it looks to me to be all fairly reasonable for the purposes of being an upgrade of an existing 7 ton class helicopter, and the nature of modifications you are describing are unrealistic and would require a substantial redesign of the helicopter to enlarge fuselage volume to enable housing of more systems internally as doing so without a redesign would cause existing payload and fuel capacity to be reduced as well as existing electronics and LRUs, in turn needing more powerful engines and potentially a whole new transmission/drivetrain.



And here I thought this was a one-off.

Look, just some of your questions portray complex changes and characteristics as if they were easy or intuitively desirable, when in reality the changes are not easy nor desirable.
 

Fergus

New Member
Registered Member
Real world examples of this include the APS turrets PLA APCs were deployed with in reaction to Pelosi’s recent uninvited visit. .
Wait the PLA deployed APS on its vehicles? I hadn't heard of that, is there any pics you can link me to?
 

MarKoz81

Junior Member
Registered Member
That wouldn't be possible, the smoother shapes would have to be larger than the square ones unless they start making bespoke sensors, which is too expensive. If radio transparency is required, then even more expenses and a larger number of parts. Here's a quick model.

View attachment 125922
View attachment 125923
View attachment 125924

Strangely enough, I happen to have some, limited, experience with production of similar devices. I never worked with helicopter production but I do understand the structural dynamics of the body of a rotorcraft.

Here are the problems with your line of thinking:

Rotorcraft are not airplanes. Airplanes generate lift peacefully through gliding effect. Rotorcraft generate lift violently by forcing the air downward. In a rotorcraft the main source of stress is not airframe drag but vibration and torque generated by the main rotor. Everything in the helicopter shakes and twists at the same time because rotating mass/energy doesn't like mass/energy in adjacent space to remain inert. The airflows around the body in flight is largely negligible in comparison.

At speeds at which rotorcraft move drag is not an obstacle because the fuel economy of an armoured attack helicopter is already very bad. Rotorcraft have very inefficient propulsion which is intended to provide an unique capability of vertical takeoff and hover, not of efficient horizontal movement which could be significantly affected by drag.

In some ways additional drag may even be useful considering that the thing which helicopters need most is controlled flight. They are not supposed to move too easily because then horizontal movement can be risky. The whole point of a helo is that it doesn't want to move, so the pilot can move it with greater effort but also with greater precision. When you look at attack helicopters you will notice that their body is very different compared to transport helicopters. Transport helicopters are much more aerodynamic, because their purpose is to move payloads between points so fuel economy matters because it adds range or internal payload. Attack helicopters have hard limits on payload on pylons and consequently their range is less fluid than transport helos. Therefore attack helicopters need to be as resilient as possible, which often means that structurally simpler elements which have greater structural strength are preferable. Hence the angular look of most modern attack helos.

All the sleek aerodynamic shapes are very bad for handling dynamic stress due to being shot at. Look at how MRAP hulls are designed compared to regular vehicles. Geometry defines how forces propagate in a piece of material. More simpler geometries is more resilient to destructive forces than fewer more complex geometries.

Since we're talking about benefits of simple geometry. In your images you also misrepresented the actual geometry of the sensor. What you see on the picture of the helo is a large box sitting on a base which is structurally independent, which is fixed to the wing. It is designed like that to minimise transfer of forces from the body of the helo, via the wing, onto the sensor casing and onto the electro-mechanical system inside it.

The system has to be fixed to the casing somehow so it doesn't fly around while the helo moves. The more freeform the geometry of the box, the harder it is to fix to it the elements inside it. Think about where the screws would go. Then think how these screws would inevitably transfer vibrations from the helo body onto the casing and then onto the sensor inside it. Do you want a sensitive electro-optical mechanism to be resonating with the rotor?

That "inefficient" shape is in reality a very practical arrangement because it is not only cheaper to build it like that, but it also works better under stress. On the image above it seems to have very thick edges which indicates that they are the main load-bearing element that works under stress. Look at the edges of the casing again and consider that even today with all the advanced numerical technology a lot of welding is done with crude joints. That's because joints are the main stress-carrying element and to do it they need to have the right properties and structural strength which is created in the physical process of welding.

Left image - colours designate structurally independent elements. Orange areas are joints or reinforced edges.

helo sensor structure.jpg

Your design which is more streamlined would result in the casing of the sensor cracking and deforming much faster. The casing would also have to be mold cast, which may not be possible depending on what the materials are. The elements on the helo are cheap and easy to make and can be put together with screws and simple clamps. Because the geometry is so simple, it can be replaced in case the upgrade of the sensor requires slightly bigger elements.

All in all it is extremely unlikely for you to be more insightful and knowledgeable about the design than people who have worked on it. It is extremely likely that you are just an online enthusiast making an ill-informed commentary about things that you don't like visually but which you don't understand. The element that you criticise isn't supposed to win beauty contests. It is supposed to protect the helo against attack. Your entire mode of thinking and priorities are backwards compared to those of the helo's designers.

Hope this helped.
 
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iBBz

Junior Member
Registered Member
What makes you think it didn’t?
Never said it did or didn't.

Fully relevant to the topic, because if you’re wanting to use Ka-52 as an example of a contemporary attack helicopter with landing gear which retracts for purposes of reducing drag, you have to acknowledge how common or uncommon it is for contemporary attack helicopters to have such a feature as well.
I used the example of the Ka-52 landing gear to demonstrate the importance of reducing drag. It had nothing to do with landing gear or other helicopter classes.

You seem to have entirely ignored what I wrote in that part of my reply, because it was another way of explaining that an increase in drag for an aircraft like an attack helicopter is of relatively minor consequence relative to the SWAP-C of an attack helicopter airframe and the overall structural ability to carry more weight.
I disagree. This is a flying object, not a Jeep Wrangler.

The DIRCM seems mounted in the right direction to me as well.

As for being less draggy, that depends what external payload you’re comparing it to.
Yea but armaments usually have low aspect ratios and optimized for high speeds, so that at least is a plus.

I am aware, and I am also talking about everything mounted externally as a whole.

I am saying that it looks to me to be all fairly reasonable for the purposes of being an upgrade of an existing 7 ton class helicopter, and the nature of modifications you are describing are unrealistic and would require a substantial redesign of the helicopter to enlarge fuselage volume to enable housing of more systems internally as doing so without a redesign would cause existing payload and fuel capacity to be reduced as well as existing electronics and LRUs, in turn needing more powerful engines and potentially a whole new transmission/drivetrain.
We already agreed on Z-10ME being a good product and we agreed that compromises had to be made. Stop going in circles.

Look, just some of your questions portray complex changes and characteristics as if they were easy or intuitively desirable, when in reality the changes are not easy nor desirable.
Not sure if you're talking about spelling words or aerodynamics at this point.
 
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