Z-10 thread

[Lion]

I think the point is that with a more powerful engine the advantages are many

More engine means, more range, more fuel, more weapons, longer time in the air, better survivabilty, better situational awareness etc etc

The entirely new AH-64E Block III has a engine which produces more than 2,000Shp the most powerful Apache helo ever produced, it enables it to carry equipment for LINK16 and control UAV, this is the advantage of more powerful engines

Now these types of helos can carry Hellfire and Stinger missiles, both at the same time, more capabilitys means more options means more flexibilty in war time

Obviously the current WZ10 engine is good that's we have 60 in operation, but good military companies make a product and once the production and deliverys is complete a comprehensive upgrade programme is in place and starts as soon as the last unit is dilivered or even earlier

I would expect that China starts it's upgrade of WZ10 as soon as new turbo shaft is in place replacing all engines on current WZ10 expanding the envelope of capabilities of the WZ10

The jewel in the crown of the USAF is the F22 Raptor, last units were just delivered and a upgrade programme until 2023 is now scheduled by Lockheed Martain, your pipeline is always full that is the way modern military machines work

I agree with your statement but the perception is most of the opinion is WZ-10 is under powered currently and not able to perform as good as it intend to be just because they mixed up the class between 7tons WZ-10 compare to a 10 tons Apache and thinking its underpowered by demanding Apache GE-701 turboshaft. That's a whopping 3 tons different and WZ-9 turbo shaft being lesser power than GE-701 needed to handle a lesser weight is unlikely to be underperforming.

For WZ-10 current configuration, I think WZ-9 turboshaft is doing well , if not , as what you mention serial production will not started and almost a hundred will not be entering service.

 

[asif iqbal]

I agree with your statement but the perception is most of the opinion is WZ-10 is under powered currently and not able to perform as good as it intend to be just because they mixed up the class between 7tons WZ-10 compare to a 10 tons Apache and thinking its underpowered by demanding Apache GE-701 turboshaft. That's a whopping 3 tons different and WZ-9 turbo shaft being lesser power than GE-701 needed to handle a lesser weight is unlikely to be underperforming.

For WZ-10 current configuration, I think WZ-9 turboshaft is doing well , if not , as what you mention serial production and almost a hundred are entering service.

Comparing any attack helo to the AH-64 is simply unfair, T-129, Rooivalk, Mangusta all pretty much carry 8 anti-tank missiles, WZ10 carrys everything that a modern attack helo does plus 8 anti tank missile so it's enough for the current purpose, barring AH-64 it's a very good all weather helo comparible to the world best attack programmes

But if you want to compare to AH-64 it's a whole new level, my last post was to point out the level of technology that AH-64 has and what it would take to equal it or in the unlikely scenario beat it

A Chinese turbo shaft that produces ~1,500shp will give it weight to power ratio same as AH-64, 1,800 or 2,000 would be a overkill, which is why the China requirement for W-16 is what ~1,600? So it's good news

 

[Franklin]

The new WZ-16 turboshaft is said to produce 1500kW and 1700 to 1800 shp, i don't know if that's overkill for the WZ-10. But this engine is jointly developed with Turbomeca of France on a 50 50 bases. But i don't know what exactly the arrangements are between Turbomeca and Avic when it comes to production. The WZ-16 engine should be certified this year and enter mass production next year.

MODS is there a reason why i can't upload images from my computer files ? I have tried to upload a image of the WZ-16 engine before and it has failed and now i try that again and it has failed again.

 

[Engineer]

The new WZ-16 turboshaft is said to produce 1500kW and 1700 to 1800 shp, i don't know if that's overkill for the WZ-10. But this engine is jointly developed with Turbomeca of France on a 50 50 bases. But i don't know what exactly the arrangements are between Turbomeca and Avic when it comes to production. The WZ-16 engine should be certified this year and enter mass production next year.

MODS is there a reason why i can't upload images from my computer files ? I have tried to upload a image of the WZ-16 engine before and it has failed and now i try that again and it has failed again.

You probably don't have enough post count to upload pictures yet. You can upload the pictures to an image hosting site such as

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

.

 

[jobjed]

The new WZ-16 turboshaft is said to produce 1500kW and 1700 to 1800 shp, i don't know if that's overkill for the WZ-10. But this engine is jointly developed with Turbomeca of France on a 50 50 bases. But i don't know what exactly the arrangements are between Turbomeca and Avic when it comes to production. The WZ-16 engine should be certified this year and enter mass production next year.

MODS is there a reason why i can't upload images from my computer files ? I have tried to upload a image of the WZ-16 engine before and it has failed and now i try that again and it has failed again.

Were you trying to link to something like C:\Users\Public\Pictures or something? If that's the case then we shouldn't be able to see what's on your computer because your computer is not part of the internet. You would have to tranfer whatever picture you wish to upload to the internet and let us know of the link where you uploaded the picture. Best way of doing it is to upload to image hosting sites.

 

[Lion]

The new WZ-16 turboshaft is said to produce 1500kW and 1700 to 1800 shp, i don't know if that's overkill for the WZ-10. But this engine is jointly developed with Turbomeca of France on a 50 50 bases. But i don't know what exactly the arrangements are between Turbomeca and Avic when it comes to production. The WZ-16 engine should be certified this year and enter mass production next year.

MODS is there a reason why i can't upload images from my computer files ? I have tried to upload a image of the WZ-16 engine before and it has failed and now i try that again and it has failed again.

I think WZ-16 is more important for project like Z-15 and future large helo. I will not say its overkill since future upgrade is possible for WZ-10 with adding search sensor and additional equipment that will significantly increase the overall weight. But currently, I think WZ-9 turbo shaft is enough for WZ-10. The very fact, serial production started and even put it on airshow and carry out demonstration. And finally, the chief designer even state a desire to export this attack helo suggest PLA is very happy with this helo and no sign of under armour and under performance. Imagine, china try to export an incompetitive attack helo which is underpowered and under performance. I do not see PLA with such unforeseen.

 

[ahadicow]

Not only are Z-10 and Ah-64 of different weight class, they are designed for different purpose as well.

Z-10 is almost a dedicated anti-tank platform, they are not build to deal with threat from infantry like large-calibre gunfire and Manpad. They are light, fast, fire-your-missle-and-get-out type of atk halo that specilized in killing concentrated tank battalions. Keep in mind Z-10 project started in late-70s, with the background of possible Soviet invasion. How would the Soviet invade China but with a unstoppable torrent of tanks rolling through the northen plains?

AH-64, on the other hand, is a helicopter gunship. US military strategy is global reach and global action, that means US military need to prepare for a battle at any time in any place of the world. There is a good probability when fight starts, american troops are without dedicated MBT/AA/artillery/reconnaissance. So an helicopter gunship have to play all those roles for the troops on the ground. It also measns AH-64 have to get into urban environment, infantry rich environment, anti-insurgency environment and stay there for prolonged periods. Those requirement are just non-existent or not very urgent on the Chinese side. PLA don't want a flying tank, they just want a flying tank-killer.

 

[Lion]

Not only are Z-10 and Ah-64 of different weight class, they are designed for different purpose as well.

Z-10 is almost a dedicated anti-tank platform, they are not build to deal with threat from infantry like large-calibre gunfire and Manpad. They are light, fast, fire-your-missle-and-get-out type of atk halo that specilized in killing concentrated tank battalions. Keep in mind Z-10 project started in late-70s, with the background of possible Soviet invasion. How would the Soviet invade China but with a unstoppable torrent of tanks rolling through the northen plains?

AH-64, on the other hand, is a helicopter gunship. US military strategy is global reach and global action, that means US military need to prepare for a battle at any time in any place of the world. There is a good probability when fight starts, american troops are without dedicated MBT/AA/artillery/reconnaissance. So an helicopter gunship have to play all those roles for the troops on the ground. It also measns AH-64 have to get into urban environment, infantry rich environment, anti-insurgency environment and stay there for prolonged periods. Those requirement are just non-existent or not very urgent on the Chinese side. PLA don't want a flying tank, they just want a flying tank-killer.

I do not agree with yr statement. The project for WZ-10 started in 70s does not mean it will remain a 70s requirement or 70s design. In fact, I will rank WZ-10 more modern design than AH-64.

All dedicated gunship are decide to have possible the chance to take part in close urban warfare that included euro tiger and WZ-10. Basic requirement is to armour to withstand small infantry arms. If WZ-10 are just dedicated long range tank killers, WZ-9G will take on that role. The fact, they design WZ-10 to have a fixed gun. Indicated close range combat with light infantry will be part of its critieria. Burly looking landing gear indicated its design for a control landing crash that included strengthening the helo body to withstand such high impact.

I do not see PLA having set a lower criteria when designing a similar dedicated gunship to match the western counterpart.

 

[ahadicow]

I do not see PLA having set a lower criteria when designing a similar dedicated gunship to match the western counterpart.

"High criteria" is not necessarily a good thing. The US approach to most problems is to throw technologies at them till they are solved. Such approach is a luxury but certainly has its downsides. For example, have you heard any news regarding AH-64 unable to perform combat duty due to mechincal problems? Have you heard any of them crash due to those problems? Have you seen the man/hour and cost requred in maintaining these complex fighting machines? Do you wonder why US decided to cancel a much more advanced and complex Comarche?

The ability to bring any tool to any situation is power; Knowing percisely which tool is needed in a situation is intelligence.

 

[A.Man]

The Production Speed of China Military Helicopters