WW II Historical Thread, Discussion, Pics, Videos

Lezt

Junior Member
I don't think I was jumping to conclusions. I was basing my beliefs on the pre ww2 period involving the rise of Japanese militarism and nationalism During that period the Bushido code which had its roots in hundreds of years of history was introduced into the military. I think this made it easier to sell the idea of self sacrifice to the pilots during times of desperation.

However I'm not aware on whether the Germans had a similar historical motivating force.

Thats fine, what I meant was more of a "medieval" conclusion.

Each country have their own martial traditions; The Germans had with them the idea of being Prussian:
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Selbstverleugnung:The German author and soldier Walter Flex (1887-1917) wrote "Wer je auf Preußens Fahne schwört, hat nichts mehr, was ihm selbst gehört." Translation: "He who swears on Prussia's flag has nothing left that belongs to himself."
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The thing about Germany, or Prussia is that it also stems from the "Holy Roman Empire" (BTW, it is not holy, not roman and definitely not an empire) which interpreted its code of honor and militarism from Imperial Rome.. also thousands of years old.
 
Lezt I'm not sure what exactly you're talking with B.I.B. but I don't see anything suicidal in the stuff you posted:

Thats fine, what I meant was more of a "medieval" conclusion.


Each country have their own martial traditions; The Germans had with them the idea of being Prussian:
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Selbstverleugnung:The German author and soldier Walter Flex (1887-1917) wrote "Wer je auf Preußens Fahne schwört, hat nichts mehr, was ihm selbst gehört." Translation: "He who swears on Prussia's flag has nothing left that belongs to himself."
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The thing about Germany, or Prussia is that it also stems from the "Holy Roman Empire" (BTW, it is not holy, not roman and definitely not an empire) which interpreted its code of honor and militarism from Imperial Rome.. also thousands of years old.

I can see parts of the book Wikipedia quotes on kamikaze (see my latest post) and it seems the Japanese military was careful, quote,
Because the tokkotai operation was a guarantee of death, the top military officers, quite hypocritically, decided not to make this operation an official part of the imperial navy or army, where orders were issued in the name of the emperor (REFERENCES HERE). They preferred to make it appear that the corps was formed voluntarily and that men volunteered to be pilots.
end of quote
 
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Lezt

Junior Member
Lezt I'm not sure what exactly you're talking with B.I.B. but I don't see anything suicidal in the stuff you posted:



I can see parts of the book Wikipedia quotes on kamikaze (see my latest post) and it seems the Japanese military was careful, quote,
Because the tokkotai operation was a guarantee of death, the top military officers, quite hypocritically, decided not to make this operation an official part of the imperial navy or army, where orders were issued in the name of the emperor (REFERENCES HERE). They preferred to make it appear that the corps was formed voluntarily and that men volunteered to be pilots.
end of quote

I am not talking about suicide squads. I was talking about the cultural and historical background to enable people to come up with suicide squad. i.e. Prussian Ideals were to follow orders and to die for the fatherland as much as Bushido would promote subordination and honor in death.

If you are interested in suicide squads or near suicide squads:
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The Mistel was like a suicide aircraft but without the suicide. As Germany was losing the war, there were some fanatic and influential Nazi officers like Hanna Reitsch, a famous female test pilot and pre-war gliding champion, Otto Skorzeny, a special operations expert, and Hajo Hermann, a senior bomber and night fighter leader, who suggested, unrelated to the Japanese use of Kamikaze suicide pilots, that Germany will use volunteers as suicide pilots in order to overcome the allied technological and numerical advantages with their fanatic spirit. The idea had roots in German mythology that was glorified by Nazi propaganda, it was "Totenritt", a death ride.
Hitler was reluctant, but eventually agreed to Reitsch's request to establish and train a suicide attack air unit, in condition that it will not be operated in combat without his approval. The new unit, nicknamed the Leonidas Squadron, also became part of KG 200.

Leonidas was the Greek warrior king of Sparta who in 480BC stopped the invading Persian army at the narrow Thermopylae pass in East Greece with just 300 elite warriors who fought to the last man. Their sacrifice saved Greece from occupation, and a statue of Leonidas still stands at Thermopylae. The desperate Nazi fanatics thought they can save Germany too by suicide tactics.

The aircraft to be used was the Fi-103 Reichenberg, a manned version of the German V-1 cruise missile, equipped with a small cockpit and flight controls. After two volunteers were killed trying to test fly it, it was successfully flown by Hanna Reitsch, the experienced test pilot who was the first to sign as a volunteer suicide pilot. 24 V-1 cruise missiles were initially modified to manned suicide missiles and over 70 volunteers, mostly young recruits, began training to fly the V-1 as a suicide missile. They were called "self-sacrificers". Theoretically they were supposed to try to bail out after aiming their piloted missile to its final dive at the target, but it was clear that the chances of survival were very low. Also, unlike the much faster rocket-powered Japanese Okha suicide missile, that was much faster than all allied fighters, the jet-powered V-1 was slow enough to be intercepted.

The suicide squadron of KG 200 was never used in combat because Werner Baumbach and his superiors considered it an unnecessary waste of life and resources, and preferred the Mistel. Baumbach claimed that Mistel was better than both a manned bomber and a suicide missile, because of the minimal loss of crew lives, as losing a manned bomber meant the loss of a full crew while Mistel was flown by a single pilot, and unlike a suicide missile pilot, the Mistel pilot had a chance to return safely.

Eventually another German suicide tactic was used in combat. It was the interception of heavy bombers by ramming, as suggested by Hajo Hermann, head of the German night fighters command. Fighter wing 300 (JG 300) was assigned to use this tactic very late in the war, equipped with ordinary Me-109 and Fw-190 fighters, but it was used just a few times, with little success. Few bombers were destroyed by collisions, and few suicide pilots who managed to bail out were killed by the furious gunners of the other bombers.
 
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Look what I found:
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Italian battleship Guilio Cesare in Malta (I don't know what was the occasion) ... on June 21, 1938 ... had this been possible on the same day four years later, probably Egypt would've fallen; for example, Wikipedia says "Rommel had planned to attack on 30 June but supply and transport difficulties had resulted in a day's delay, vital to the defending forces reorganising on the Alamein line."
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I'm saying this because several years ago I saw an interesting article (forgot which was it was though) which presented a plan how the Germans could've won the WW2 (OK, according to the author :) which was, as far as I remember, having the France defeated in June 1940, concentrate on Africa (not the UK) and get to the Middle East, and only then attack the USSR (one of the army groups then would've been coming from Iran, so I can't resist to add: direction Stalingrad :)

What do you think?
 

antiterror13

Brigadier
Japanese Broadcast Official: We Didn't Commit War Crimes, the U.S. Just Made That Up

Very interesting opinions!

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Japan's top TV figures are making increasingly outrageous statements about World War II

By Kirk Spitzer / Tokyo Feb. 07, 2014706 Comments

2013 Booksellers' Award Announced
The Asahi Shimbun / 2013 The Asahi Shimbun
Writer and NHK board member Naoki Hyakuta, seen here last year at the launch of one of his books, believes the Japanese did not commit war crimes in World War II and that the U.S. fabricated them

In the clearest signal yet of U.S. unhappiness with the rightward tilt of Japan’s political leadership — and by extension, Prime Minister Shinzo Abe — the U.S. embassy in Tokyo has strongly condemned charges by a top official at Japan’s national public broadcaster that Americans fabricated war crimes against Japanese leaders during World War II in order to cover up American atrocities.

“These suggestions are preposterous. We hope that people in positions of responsibility in Japan and elsewhere would seek to avoid comments that inflame tensions in the region,” an embassy spokesman told TIME early on Friday.

The charges were made this week by Naoki Hyakuta, a nationalist writer and close friend of Abe, who was recently appointed to the board of governors of the Japan Broadcasting Corp., commonly known as NHK.

In campaign speeches on behalf of a far-right candidate for the governorship of Tokyo, Hyakuta claimed that the infamous Nanjing Massacre in 1937 never occurred, and that Americans staged the postwar trials of Japanese leaders to cover up U.S. war crimes. He said those crimes included the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki and the mass firebombings of Tokyo.

The staunchly conservative Abe himself caused diplomatic outrage in December, when he paid his respects at Tokyo’s Yasukuni Shrine — a memorial to the Japanese war dead including 14 high-ranking war criminals. Beijing, Seoul and Washington strongly condemned the visit. Now supporters of Abe who have been appointed to NHK’s top decisionmaking body are fueling tensions by making revisionist or inflammatory statements.

Last week, the new NHK chairman Katsuto Momii provoked outrage both at home and abroad when he said all of the countries involved in World War II maintained “comfort women” — a euphemism for the system of forced prostitution employed by the Japanese military during the war years.

That charge prompted a frosty denial from the U.S. embassy in Tokyo that American forces had engaged in any such activity.

Along with Hyakuta’s charges, it was reported this week that another NHK board member had published an essay praising the leader of a nationalist group who committed ritual suicide in the offices of a major newspaper in October 1993 to protest negative news coverage.

Board member Michiko Hasegawa wrote that because the activist recited a brief prayer to the Emperor before shooting himself in the abdomen, “His Majesty the Emperor has again become a living god.”
 Hasegawa is a professor emeritus of Japanese cultural studies in Tokyo.

Japan’s Emperors were once worshipped as living gods, but are designated under the current constitution as “the symbol of the state and of the unity of the people.” As such, they have no governing authority or official religious function.

Hasegawa, who also has close ties to Abe, published the essay in connection with a ceremony marking the 20th anniversary of the activist’s death.

The appointment of such staunch nationalists to NHK’s board is part of a concerted campaign by the Abe administration to recast Japan as the true victim of World War II and put a more benign face on the country’s often brutal colonial practices, says Jeff Kingston, professor of Asian studies at Temple University’s Tokyo campus.

“These are Abe’s cronies, they agree with his revisionist views, and now he’s putting them in positions of power and influence,” says Kingston. “What they don’t realize is that the right-wing revisionists are not convincing many people in Japan, and they are not convincing people outside Japan. What they are doing is creating a huge diplomatic problem.”

Japan is locked in increasingly tense disputes with neighboring China and South Korea over territorial and historical issues. A spokesman for China’s Foreign Ministry denounced Hyakuta’s statements on the Nanjing Massacre as “a barefaced challenge to international justice and human conscience” and called on Japan to “face up” to its history.

China says 300,000 Chinese soldiers and civilians died in Nanjing during a weeks-long rampage by Japanese troops. Although some mainstream historians put the number of casualties lower, few — if any — deny the incident occurred.

Critics say the Abe appointees threaten the editorial integrity of Japan’s largest broadcaster.

“Just the knowledge of the character of the governors leads producers and journalists working for NHK to engage in self-censorship,” says Michael Cucek, a Tokyo-based research associate at MIT’s Center for International Studies.

Indeed, NHK did not report chairman Momii’s controversial statements on comfort women until he was grilled by opposition members during a Diet session three days afterward. Nor had news of the debate over Hyakuta’s and Hasegawa’s statements appeared on the NHK news website as of early Friday — despite more than 7,200 messages, mostly negative, phoned in or emailed to NHK’s headquarters.

Members of the opposition have called for the appointees to be replaced, but an Abe spokesman said all had been speaking in their capacities as private citizens and had not violated government policy.

NHK is Japan’s largest television network, funded largely by viewer license fees. It produces round-the-clock entertainment and public-interest programming and operates news bureaus around the world.

The 12 members of NHK’s board serve three-year terms. They are appointed by the Prime Minister with approval of the Diet and exercise authority over NHK’s annual budget and top executives.

Hyakuta is the author of several best-selling books, including The Eternal Zero. Abe and his wife attended a screening of the film version of the book over the New Year holiday. The movie ends with the hero, a pacifist fighter pilot turned Kamikaze, flying his airplane into an American aircraft carrier.
 

chuck731

Banned Idiot
I think Abe is simultaneously pursuing 2 objectives:

1. Reduce immediate domestic opposition to his plan to amend Japan's pacifist constitution by supporting the view that japan never misused its power to make war in the past and therefore ought to have the right to be as belligerent as anyone else in the future.

2. Create an irreparable rupture with china so as to ensure the notional china threat could always be available for right wingers to use to prevent any backsliding on the pacifist constitution issue by any more moderate administrations in the future.
 

Lezt

Junior Member
Look what I found:
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Italian battleship Guilio Cesare in Malta (I don't know what was the occasion) ... on June 21, 1938 ... had this been possible on the same day four years later, probably Egypt would've fallen; for example, Wikipedia says "Rommel had planned to attack on 30 June but supply and transport difficulties had resulted in a day's delay, vital to the defending forces reorganising on the Alamein line."
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I'm saying this because several years ago I saw an interesting article (forgot which was it was though) which presented a plan how the Germans could've won the WW2 (OK, according to the author :) which was, as far as I remember, having the France defeated in June 1940, concentrate on Africa (not the UK) and get to the Middle East, and only then attack the USSR (one of the army groups then would've been coming from Iran, so I can't resist to add: direction Stalingrad :)

What do you think?

I think, ww2 could have easily gone either way; and people tend to speak with hindsight that the allies superiority industry is destined to overrun the axis is really forgetting that in 1939, the axis/allies lines are not that distinct.

This is not a germany versus the allies war either - which people nowadays simplify to. But this is a facade of post war necessities to give a mirage of evil and to consolidate those turn tailed axis members to cold war allies.

I believe that the axis have a much better chance if:

1) let the soviet union instigate the war with the third reich 1942; and appeal to neutral USA for support against the communist.

2) Italy and Germany to take Malta ASAP, to choke off the RN to the Mediterranean. Keep the "silk road" though turkey and iran open so that Germany can get the required rare earth metal from China

3) Japan to stay out of China and only take the oil fields from Dutch Indochina and French Vietnam. - Both France and Netherlands had been invaded and occupied by Germany in 1940 already. Stay away from the USA.

4) when the soviet union attacks Germany, Japan to invade the soviet union from the east.

It actually doesn't matter if the soviet union attacks germany or not. If Japan and Germany invade the soviet union ala the invasion of poland by the USSR and Germany, then the USSR would be knocked out of the fight fairly quickly.

But history had already taken it course.
 

Lezt

Junior Member
What about India? :)

India in ww2 did not have a particularly strong force. The British and commonwealth are heavily fortifying the British isles and fending off Egypt; what army can they spare from guarding Egypt and India to cut up Iran or Turkey - which are sovereign friendly to Germany states?

If malta fails to be held, supplying and maintaining Egypt will be very hard for the british with all convoys having to sail around africa.

India also have to guard against a potential Japanese invasion; of course which the Japanese would be guarding against an US intervention.

If the soviet did invade germany first, it is conceivable that a ceasefire or peace treaty could be signed between the UK and Germany (Since it was the UK that declared war on Germany after the 4th partition of poland; and the BEF was soundly defeated) and that the USA will take sides with Germany for their mutual hate of communists and their shared social values in Aryan/white-man-ism.
 
India in ww2 did not have a particularly strong force. ...

I know but after your statement in http://www.sinodefenceforum.com/mil...startegy-discussions-18-6728.html#post268761: "... Keep the "silk road" though turkey and iran open so that Germany can get the required rare earth metal from China " I just wondered how would you have secured "the silk road" (I like that, by the way :) considering a huge British territory on it, and the Indian Ocean around ... I mean if the Germans should have attacked all the way to Burma, or let Japanese handle it up "back" to Iran? and where would have been the German Indian Ocean Fleet stationed, Djibouti maybe? Colombo would have been more convenient, I guess

P.S. If you thought my questions were wild, then maybe you should read March 2, 1942 issue of LIFE (published in Chicago, Ill.) I just found at
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:)
 
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