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Lezt

Junior Member
When the Japanese launched their Kamikaze missions , was their any official provision made should targets not be located at the suspected positions.

I'm asking this because of the story about one of the Kamikaze pilots asking his C.O. What the flight parth for any returning aircraft was. I don't know whether it was just a joke that was being passed around or it actually happened but with certain facts left out to make it funny.

Kamikazes had escorts to emotionally pressurized the pilot to complete their missions... I don't know about failure to locate targets... as kamikazes were supposed to be sent when contact had been made with the enemy.

On a side note... I think the kamikazes are used wrongly... if you are willing to expend human life that way... why have one plane crash into a carrier to damage it when you can have a squadron to sink it? sending them in piecemeal only mean that they all gunners are focusing on one plane at each time.
 
When the Japanese launched their Kamikaze missions , was their any official provision made should targets not be located at the suspected positions.

...

I sure don't know, just used google a moment ago :) quote
The tokkōtai pilot's manual also explained how a pilot may turn back if the pilot could not locate a target and that "[a pilot] should not waste [his] life lightly."
end of quote from
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This Wikipedia article seems often quote from Kamikaze Diaries: Reflections of Japanese Student Soldiers By Emiko Ohnuki-Tierney
Publisher: University Of Chicago Press 2006

I'm afraid it would be disgusting and sickening read ...
 
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chuck731

Banned Idiot
When the Japanese launched their Kamikaze missions , was their any official provision made should targets not be located at the suspected positions.

I'm asking this because of the story about one of the Kamikaze pilots asking his C.O. What the flight parth for any returning aircraft was. I don't know whether it was just a joke that was being passed around or it actually happened but with certain facts left out to make it funny.

I believe initially, kamikazes were provided with enough fuel for a return trip should they fail to find their enemy, and pilots were given the option to either conduct conventional attack, or suicide attack as they deem best depending on the situation. Later kamikazes were increasingly sent without enough fuel to complete a return trip, so suicide attack became the only viable option and chance of survival if the target is not found and plane has to ditch is low, given the low state of pilot training. Eventually dedicated kamikaze planes were developed that didn't even have any physical provision for landing, like landing gears or skids. They were either dropped from mother aircrsfts like bombs, or takes off under their own power on wheels that are jettisoned once the aircraft becomes airborn.
 

B.I.B.

Captain
On a side note... I think the kamikazes are used wrongly... if you are willing to expend human life that way... why have one plane crash into a carrier to damage it when you can have a squadron to sink it? sending them in piecemeal only mean that they all gunners are focusing on one plane at each time.

Was that the strategy right through the Kamikaze campaign?. One can understand them exploring their way in the early weeks when only small groups were sent off. Perhaps the idea was just to battle damage them enough for them to be withdrawn from battle. Those American carriers with wooden decks were much easier to cause serious damage to than their British counterpart.
 

B.I.B.

Captain
I sure don't know, just used google a moment ago :) quote
The tokkōtai pilot's manual also explained how a pilot may turn back if the pilot could not locate a target and that "[a pilot] should not waste [his] life lightly."
end of quote from
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

This Wikipedia article seems often quote from Kamikaze Diaries: Reflections of Japanese Student Soldiers By Emiko Ohnuki-Tierney
Publisher: University Of Chicago Press 2006

I'm afraid it would be disgusting and sickening read ...

The wiki read was quite enlightening. It does appear that not all Kamikaze pilots were willing volunteers, and although there were provision made available for a pilot to abandon the mission but then they were ostracized for doing so_One pilot was eventually shot for returning 9 times.
 

B.I.B.

Captain
I believe initially, kamikazes were provided with enough fuel for a return trip should they fail to find their enemy, and pilots were given the option to either conduct conventional attack, or suicide attack as they deem best depending on the situation. Later kamikazes were increasingly sent without enough fuel to complete a return trip, so suicide attack became the only viable option and chance of survival if the target is not found and plane has to ditch is low, given the low state of pilot training. Eventually dedicated kamikaze planes were developed that didn't even have any physical provision for landing, like landing gears or skids. They were either dropped from mother aircrsfts like bombs, or takes off under their own power on wheels that are jettisoned once the aircraft becomes airborn.

Interesting, I think that while the Japanse had a fairly modern military, their mindset was still stuck in the medieval era. However I would have thought their naval and airforce contained senior personnel who were more forward thinking.
 

Lezt

Junior Member
Interesting, I think that while the Japanse had a fairly modern military, their mindset was still stuck in the medieval era. However I would have thought their naval and airforce contained senior personnel who were more forward thinking.

BIB, I don't think it is a valid statement and it does sound condescending.. Desperation cause men to take extreme measures. And the west is also riddled with acts which we can jump to a conclusion that the west is a barbaric civilization; such as the like the cannibalism on the Meduse 1810; or American troops collecting human remains as trophy during WW2, Korea, Vietnam... and even in Afghanistan right now. While Germany also came close to a suicide piloted V1 squad in 1945 - you may argue that it is systematic on the Japanese case, but you can also argue that the American case still exist as there is nothing more than a slap on the hand when it happens.

So lets not degenerate into "jump to conclusions"....
 

chuck731

Banned Idiot
Interesting, I think that while the Japanse had a fairly modern military, their mindset was still stuck in the medieval era. However I would have thought their naval and airforce contained senior personnel who were more forward thinking.

During WWII other nations, such as Germany and particularly the Soviet Union, also pressured large number of their men into actions that were totally equivalent to suicide attacks. In fact, the total number of Soviet fighting men that died as result of being given no alternatives but carry out missions with zero chance of survival likely exceeded total Japanese military casaulties during the war from all causes by a big margin. But the Soviet Union was more dishonest about it.

If Soviet Soliders commanded to carry out suicide missions nevertheless manage to survive by being captured, Soviet Union would brutally punish these POWs after they were repatrioted after the war, should they be so unlucky to also fail to die in the brutal conditions of German POW camps and slave factories. The Japanese kamikazi mentioned above was only punished after failing to die as expected 9 times. (I guess he really had 9 lives and used up every one of them). Punishment descends upon Soviet Kamikazis if they fail to die as expected just once.

Japan never underwent an equivalent of Bolshivization or Stalinazation, which made it acceptable through widespread practice to do to death vast numbers of own citizens in the name of greater good. Therefore it was necessary for Japan to build a mythology of glorious sacrafice to justify suicide attacks during the war. Soviet Union had become accustomed to large number of its citizens accommodatingly dying when the government wants them dead in the name of some greater good, so the Soviet Union didn't have the need to glorify suicide attackers the same way Japanese did. A few selected heros good for PR and home front morale are glorified, but most of the Soviet kamikazis died without ceremony because dying when the state needs them to is expected. It is telling that 70% of Soviet military dead in WWII have no known grave or burial site.

I leave you to judge which is more repulsive or medieval by your standards.

As to midset, the Nazi regime made a strenuous and unapologetic effort to glorify what they conceive to have been the medieval mindset and ethics as distinct, and and worthy improvement to, modern mindset and ethics. Nazis even made it a mere manslaughter for German man to kill a German woman, but murder for German woman to kill a German man, on the principle that man, being the stronger sex, is acting less against nature, and therefore less criminally, in killing a woman, where as woman, being the weaker sex, is acting more strongly against nature, and therefore more criminally, to kill a man.
 
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B.I.B.

Captain
BIB, I don't think it is a valid statement and it does sound condescending.. Desperation cause men to take extreme measures. And the west is also riddled with acts which we can jump to a conclusion that the west is a barbaric civilization; such as the like the cannibalism on the Meduse 1810; or American troops collecting human remains as trophy during WW2, Korea, Vietnam... and even in Afghanistan right now. While Germany also came close to a suicide piloted V1 squad in 1945 - you may argue that it is systematic on the Japanese case, but you can also argue that the American case still exist as there is nothing more than a slap on the hand when it happens.

So lets not degenerate into "jump to conclusions"....

I don't think I was jumping to conclusions. I was basing my beliefs on the pre ww2 period involving the rise of Japanese militarism and nationalism During that period the Bushido code which had its roots in hundreds of years of history was introduced into the military. I think this made it easier to sell the idea of self sacrifice to the pilots during times of desperation.

However I'm not aware on whether the Germans had a similar historical motivating force.
 
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...

So lets not degenerate into "jump to conclusions"....

An example of how desperate the Germans were when their defeat was in sight (I'm speaking from memory about an article published in a military history journal but I don't remember which one it was :-( maybe three years ago, which my wife probably has thrown away already): In a top-secret operation, giant seaplanes were flown inland and stuffed with explosives to be used against railway bridges over the Vistula River (in Poland, at that time on the territory already taken by the Red Army which used those bridges to pour in ordnance and troops to the west in enormous numbers; the air defenses of the bridges were too strong, Luftwaffe couldn't do anything about it :) That article used recollections of one of the pilots; he was kept separated from the rest of personnel at a military base he didn't even know that existed; the plan for him was just to fly south over the river (from northern part of nowadays Poland) then fly round the bridge and approach it from south (in a hope to confuse the defenders), land on the river and give over the steering wheel to a member of "Special Forces" on board. After that, the pilot would be dismissed, free to leave ... as he didn't volunteer for this mission (as contrasted to the demolition men, who seemed to be enthusiastic about it), he asked about "an extraction plan" so after some time he was issued a forged ID which stated he was deaf-mute (certainly a good idea, as he neither understood nor spoke Polish), and they promised to put to the airplane a raft and a paddle ("the cargo" would be approaching the bridge down-stream, so it might not be enough just to jump into the water) ... after he had heard this, he wrote a short letter to his wife informing her he is about to fly a mission from which he won't come back.
As far as I remember, the operation was put off several times until it was too late (the planes wouldn't have made it that far behind the enemy lines).
 
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