WW II Historical Thread, Discussion, Pics, Videos

Lezt

Junior Member
The following two sentences from my recent post, quote,
For perforating heavy deck armour at greater angles that 30 degrees to the normal, a blunter shell head than 1.4crh was needed, perhaps in the form of a truncated cone. LET'S SAY THIS IS OK BUT NOW: This, however, increased the chance of shearing the threads holding the adaptor, due, it was thought to the violent elastic recovery of the shell as the first pressure wave on hitting returned from the base as a tensile wave.
end of quote
Lezt, check731, Rutim, anybody?

This is actually an interesting thing I have learnt from tanks. During WW2 the soviets used a special type of AP shell against sloped tank armor. It is the uncapped (still balistically capped) blunt nose AP shell adopted from the navy. This is used on the 122 mm shells ( a tad under 5") ; so these shells are not small and for it to work, it needs significant mass in the shell (hence the big calibre).

What actually happens (remeber, a T34 is 60 deg from vertical, M4 is 56 deg and a panther is 55 deg) is that the blunt nose allows more contact area for the shell to grab onto the armor, and enough friction for the shell to "turn in" towards the armor because the rear end of the shell still want to travel straight by inertia. Thus this process "normalize" the shell making the effective armor of the sloped armor less.

There are of course pros and cons, but compared to HVAP or APCBC or APCR, there is much less shatter gap, much less chance that the shell will glance off sloped armor.

The second part of that statement is debatable. but what the author is trying to describe is that at super high speeds, softer metals acts kind of like jello when struck and he is obviously making a reference to compare the blunt nose to hard capped (APC, APCR) designs. Because blunt nose shells are more "plastic" (compared to hardened shells) for it to grip the armor and to allow it to normalize; a shock wave would be created in the shell itself and the author thinks that this elastic stress (you can keep compressing things, but when that compression wave will bounce and the "jello" will try to pull itself apart and create a tension greater [tensile wave] than the tensile strength of the metal and therefore rip it apart) will shatter or spall the shell and therefore make the shell fail in penetration.

Thats very advanced physics and actually, is the defeat mechanism of soviet heavy ERA Kontakt 5 proven against M829A1 which guillotine the APFSDS round and spalls the penetrating half.
 

Lezt

Junior Member
I'm armchair admiral who will go against the Yamato; I have 15"/42 guns in the Mk I/N turrets -- maximal elevation 30 degrees -- and Garzke and Dulin just told me :) I'm protected vertically against 15" from 14 thousand yards (but Yamato has more than 16", I suspect) and I have less than 6" of deck armor; what should I do??


In reality, pop smoke, retreat.

for this forum... full speed ahead, and ram.

Protected doesn't mean proof, or no damage. non penetrating hits still releases phenominal energy and create havoc even when not penetrating.
 

chuck731

Banned Idiot
I'm armchair admiral who will go against the Yamato; I have 15"/42 guns in the Mk I/N turrets -- maximal elevation 30 degrees -- and Garzke and Dulin just told me :) I'm protected vertically against 15" from 14 thousand yards (but Yamato has more than 16", I suspect) and I have less than 6" of deck armor; what should I do??

1. Yamato had 16" belt inclined at 20 degrees, which makes its belt more or less equivalent to an vertical 18" plate. This means Yamato's side belt is totally immune to 15"/42 1920lbs AP shell, or immune at all but point blank range (~5km) for any other shells fired by that gun.

2. Yamato had 8" deck, protected by a 1.5" fuse trigger weather deck. It can not be penetrated by any 15"/42 shell fired up to maximum elevation of 30 degrees. So if vanguard's 15" turrets were limited to 30 degrees, Yamato's citadel is totally immune from vertical penetration.

3. Vanguard had 14" vertical belt. Yamato can penetrated it in optimal condition any any range out to slightly beyond 30km.

4. Vanguard had 5.25" deck, Yamato can penetrate it at somewhere between 20km and 30km, likely much closer to 20km than 30km. But let's be conservative and say 25kms.

Yamato's citadel has a colossal immunity zone from around 5km out to maximum range of vanguard's guns. Vanguard has no immunity zone whatsoever against Yamato. In fact there is a substantial zone of double jeopardy from <25km - >30km where Yamato's shells will penetrate both the deck and the belt on the vanguard. Yamato can absorb a large number of hits from vanguard at any range without serious threat of critical damage, where as the vanguard is vulnerable to serious mobility impairment or being blown up by even just a single hit at when fighting the Yamato at any range.

Other factors in play includes the design of Yamato's and Vanguard's armor arrangement, and the unique quality of Japanese APC shells.

The performances of Japanese APC shells in actual armor penetration are poor by WWII British standards. The Japanese had adopted few of the improvements the British made in light of experience of Jutland. As a result, Japanese shells are more likely to break up rather than penetrate if it hits the armor at an oblique angle. This reduces the actual potency of Yamato's guns to a point below nominal penetration data might suggest. Also, Japanese APC fuses are more likely to be destroyed during actual armor penetration than improved British fuses, so Japanese shells are more likely to be duds even when they successfully penetrates Vanguard's citadel. This increases the likelihood that Vanguard will escape serious damage from a citadel penetration. Finally, Japanese APC fuses are complicated by water entry feature that makes it more likely that they won't be activated when hitting light armor, or confusing light armor impact with water impact and initiate a unusually long fuse delay. This means Japanese APC shells are more likely to show excessive fuse delay, or no fuse activation at all, when they hit light armor and simple structural steel. So Japanese shells are likely to fail to detonate, or detonate only long after it has passed out the other side of the target, when it hits portions of Vanguard outside the main citadel.

Conversely, Japanese paid exceptional attention to the performance of their shells when the shells fell short of the target rather than actually hit the target. As a result, Japanese shells have long, stable, predictable trajectories underwater if it lands just short of the target, unlike other country's shells. Also, Japanese fuses have unique design features that allow them to detect a water impact, and would not explode prematurely upon hitting water. So Japanese shells landing short of the Vanguard are much more likely than British shells to continue underwater, dive under Vanguard's armor belt, and penetrate into Vanguard's citadel from below, and then explode inside. British shells in the same situation would likely be kicked into a wild unpreditcable underwater trejectory by water impact, and explode prematurely before going very far.

Yamato's armor design anticipates other countries might try to achieve the same underwater performances with their heavy shells (which none actually did). So Yamato's heavy armor belt goes all the way to the ship's bottom, the then continue as a thin 3" screen along the ship's bottom. So even if one of Vanguard's shells land short, somehow follow a good underwater trajectory and hit Yamato deep underwater, It would still encounter heavy armor up to 8" thick and would be unlikely to penetrate.

Vanguard's armor did not anticipate this degree of attention to making shells behave underwater. So while Vanguard's armor belt is deep compared to earlier British battleships, it only reach half way to the ship's bottom. If one of Yamato's shells land short by 30-40 meters, it would likely follow a good underwater trajectory and hit the Vanguard deep beneath the armor belt, and penetrate into Vanguard's citadel without encountering any heavy armor other than a thin torpedo bulkhead.

All in all, I think it is fair to say vanguard is massively outmatched in any combat environment where Yamato can see the vanguard with her optical fire control instruments. If visibility is perfect, Yamato's gun fire ought to be almost as good as vanguard's. In this case vanguard might as well run away to save her crew. If the visibility is zero, then vanguard can stand off and pummel the Yamato with radar directed gun fire until it wrecks all of Yamato's superstructure and then declare a win, but it would be nearly impossible vanguard to sink or immobilize the Yamato with gun fire alone.

But in between, other factors can change the picture somewhat. Vanguard can use her speed to always position the yamato 45 degrees off her bow or stern. This would maximize obliquity of impact of Yamato's shells against vertical armor, and effectively improve the protection offered by Vanguard's belt and transverse armor bulkhead. I don't know if this would reduce the Yamato's maximum range of penetration against vertical armor on the Vanguard to a point where Vanguard will now have something of an real immunity zone. But it would at least reduce the zone in which any hit by Yamato on the Vanguard's citadel will likely penetrate. This approach will, of course, limit other tactical options for the Vanguard. If the gunnery officer of Yamato guesses the fact that Vanguard will always try to position the Yamato 45 degrees off bow or stern, then he would also have a easier time refining his range to the Vanguard, and improve the quality of optical fire control.

Vanguard was designed at a time when the British had no inkling that the Japanese were building monster battleships 50% heavier than anything the British were contemplating. Vanguard was intended to act as core of numberically inferior squadron that can use superior quality and speed to engage those older Japanese battleships that Japan might spare to send south from her confrontation with the US. Vanguard was actually described internally as "well armored battlecruiser" rather than a battleship. The reason is Vanguard was intended to fulfill the role Fisher had envisioned for fast battlecruisers before WWI, although with a very different ratio of armament than protection than Fisher had favored. Vanguard was not designed to handle an opponent like Yamato, and would have no business engaging the Yamato in any situation where the Yamato can effectively shoot back.
 
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chuck731

Banned Idiot
for this forum... full speed ahead, and ram.

.

Intentionally ramming another ship on the open sea while the target ship remains mobile, maneuverable, and intent upon not being rammed is much more difficult than might be imagined.

Ramming is a thing possible only when it seems not to be desired.
 
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Speaking from a perspective of history...disengage and withdraw under smoke...or die.

As they say, He that fights and runs away may live to fight another day.

Speaking from the perspective of the moment, maneuver well into range and bring your main batteries to bear at optimal bearing.

Yes, I think that if it had been clear to British commander it was just Yamato (and escort), he would have "tossed the dice" (engaged I mean).
 

chuck731

Banned Idiot
As they say, He that fights and runs away may live to fight another day.



Yes, I think that if it had been clear to British commander it was just Yamato (and escort), he would have "tossed the dice" (engaged I mean).

And he would be well advised to reinterprete the meaning of the dice roll when a 18" hole, or two, begin to appear on his ship.
 
Lezt, chuck731, we should start marking each other's post with Like: first Lezt wants to ram Yamato, then chuck731 sinks Vanguard, and now this LOL

And he would be well advised to reinterprete the meaning of the dice roll when a 18" hole, or two, begin to appear on his ship.

I hope to write something serious here on coming Saturday.
 
You can use two hoists for each gun, supplying different types of ammunition, allowing ammunition choice to be made on the fly from the gun house.

...

Yes. I just found this (Campbell, the end of the rightmost column on p. 24; describes 16" Mk. IV for redesigned Lion-class): "An earlier and much more spacious design with loading at any angle to +45 degrees I THINK THE FRECH RICHELIEU HAD SOMETHING SIMILAR BUT WILL HAVE TO CHECK required a mean roller path diameter of 39 feet and had separate hoists for HE and APC shells and separate shell and charge rammers."
 

Lezt

Junior Member
Intentionally ramming another ship on the open sea while the target ship remains mobile, maneuverable, and intent upon not being rammed is much more difficult than might be imagined.

Ramming is a thing possible only when it seems not to be desired.

For the spirit of the forums - and sinking ships, yes it is hard, but I am willing too bet that you would be able to do much more damage to Yamato in the Vanguard if you are willing to close the range and open up with everything than having a long range duel which is pretty much in favor of the Yamato.

A sucessful ramming would likely sink or heavily damage both ships. for a gunnery duel... Yamato would likely come out on top... So if it is a sink sink situation... might as well take the enemy down with you.
 

chuck731

Banned Idiot
For the spirit of the forums - and sinking ships, yes it is hard, but I am willing too bet that you would be able to do much more damage to Yamato in the Vanguard if you are willing to close the range and open up with everything than having a long range duel which is pretty much in favor of the Yamato.

A sucessful ramming would likely sink or heavily damage both ships. for a gunnery duel... Yamato would likely come out on top... So if it is a sink sink situation... might as well take the enemy down with you.

I think vanguard would be sunk or at least stopped by the Yamato before she can close enough to ram. It would take vanguard 12 minutes at full speed to close the range from 10km to ram even if Yamato was stationary. During this time Yamato can unleash 24 salvos. At this range hit rate would be high, probably averaging up to 50% or higher. Even if we credit Yamato with just 10% hit rate, she would still score 20 hits, with anything hitting belt, turret or barbette likely to penetrate. This is probably enough to at least cripple the vanguard and set much of the ship on fire. At 20% hit rate she would score 40 hits. That is probably fatal even without any single critical hit. At full 50% hit rate, vanguard will endure over 100 18" hits as she close (to say nothing of the hail of 6" shell fire) I seriously doubt she could possibly remain controllable enough to ram after absorbing a barrage like that. During all this time Yamato's armor would still remain largely proof against any return fire from vanguard.

I think if the crew of Yamato is awake and not drunk, vanguard should not attempt to press the issue.

If I were captaining vanguard, I might stay beyond 25km and trade a few salvos with Yamato, hoping I would score the first hit at long range because of radar. Once I've drawn the first blood, I would consider honor satisfied and retreat to a safer 30km+, and hound the Yamato like British cruisers did with Bismarck and hope superior forces will eventually arrive.

Btw, vanguard does have one small chance to score a fate hit on Yamato. Yamato has one significant weakness in its armor. The barbettes for its 6" turrets penetrate the main deck, but the barbettes themselves are lightly armored. The magazine for the super firing 6" guns are located right next to the 18" magazine. So it is conceivable that a 15" round, penetrating the thin barbette for the 6" turrets at the right place, can go on through the hole cut in the 8" deck for the barbette, and detonate in the 6" magazine below, which might set off the 18" magazine around it. That would surely be a fatal. But the chances of hitting such a small gap of vulnerability is very low.

Btw, Yamato's main gun firing rate really is 2rpm based on its 30 second loading cycle in an apple to apple comparison with other guns, not the 1.5 rpm often quoted. Yamato's main guns use fixed elevation loading, so the guns have to return to a preset elevation after each shot. As a result firing rate is more rapid when the firing elevation is closer to loading elevation. This is the same with any other gun that is loaded at fixed elevation. If the firing is done close to loading elevation, Yamato can squeeze out two rounds per gun per minute. Yet most other gun's rate of fire is quoted at close to or at loading elevation, while Yamato's is quoted at 45 degree elevation. So the 1.5rpm quoted for Yamato is really an apples to orange comparison next to the 2rpm quoted for other guns.

I am not sure why this difference made it into so many references. Perhaps a slow reload rate seem more fitting for a more ponderous gun?
 
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