I live in the bay area too, and was on the bay bridge project during my brief time as an intern. This sentiments is only really present in the general public and not really in the professional community, or else China will not chosen. (There was actually a strong bia towards American firms due to the Buy American program. There was some problem with wields in the steel, but it was solve by actually sending inspector to China.
Why "the West" gets China wrong
- Thread starter solarz
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solarz
Brigadier
Another issue is how Western analysts consistently underestimate just how dynamic and fast-paced China is.
As an example, it took 10 years to build a tiny extension to the Toronto subway. It took Shanghai only 2 years to massively expand its subway network in time for the World Expo.
When China was investing in high-speed rails, western economists kept poo-pooing the idea: the new trains will be too expensive for the poor, it will be underused, it will be unsafe, etc.
What they don't realize is, in China, what's unaffordable today is not going to stay that way in 2-3 years. Public transportation is an incredibly powerful tool for the distribution of wealthy from the coastal cities to the in-land towns. Businessmen are far more willing to invest in a developing village if they can get there in time for brunch, and come home in time for dinner!
As an example, it took 10 years to build a tiny extension to the Toronto subway. It took Shanghai only 2 years to massively expand its subway network in time for the World Expo.
When China was investing in high-speed rails, western economists kept poo-pooing the idea: the new trains will be too expensive for the poor, it will be underused, it will be unsafe, etc.
What they don't realize is, in China, what's unaffordable today is not going to stay that way in 2-3 years. Public transportation is an incredibly powerful tool for the distribution of wealthy from the coastal cities to the in-land towns. Businessmen are far more willing to invest in a developing village if they can get there in time for brunch, and come home in time for dinner!
plawolf
Lieutenant General
The simplest explanation is western 'experts' do not 'get' China because they do not want to understand China. All they do is look at China through the prisms of their bias and constantly try to shoehorn China into existing models and theories irrespective of how inappropriate and poor fitting it might be.
All this comparisons of China with pre-WWII Japan and Germany are perfect examples of prejudice coupled with lazy shoehorning. Similar thing with those who keep predicting China's collapse by insisting it will follow the exact same path as Japan and the other Asian Tiger economies.
The amusing thing is that pretty much all the China basing 'experts' never seem to have a single original idea between them. They just keep looking backwards into history (and very rarely Chinese history) and insist China will repeat all the mistakes of other countries in the past and end up with the same, always bad, ending.
Are there real experts who took the time to study China and actually come up with insightful and original ideas and theories? Of course there are, but you will never hear of their ideas because they do not predict China's imminent doom or paint China as some kind of silly one dimensional cartoon baddy, so the mainstream media will never call upon them to put their views across to the wider public. If by some accident their views are put forward to the wider audience, they will be disparaged and attacked as having 'gone native', and their ideas would be dismissed as Chinese propaganda.
But all this deliberate myopia on the part of the west is a double edged sword, and part of the reason Chinese companies have been doing so well internationally of late is partly down to the fact that western firms and their CEOs still keep underestimating the Chinese and are always caught out when they Chinese turn out to not be as stupid and one dimensional as in their delusions. You'd think that pure self interest would force the west to re-evaluate, but it appears they just prefer to chalk all the times China and Chinese firms have exceeded their expectations as evidence that China is cheating somehow. That is why all the baseless Chinese hacking claims are so easy for the west to swallow.
All this comparisons of China with pre-WWII Japan and Germany are perfect examples of prejudice coupled with lazy shoehorning. Similar thing with those who keep predicting China's collapse by insisting it will follow the exact same path as Japan and the other Asian Tiger economies.
The amusing thing is that pretty much all the China basing 'experts' never seem to have a single original idea between them. They just keep looking backwards into history (and very rarely Chinese history) and insist China will repeat all the mistakes of other countries in the past and end up with the same, always bad, ending.
Are there real experts who took the time to study China and actually come up with insightful and original ideas and theories? Of course there are, but you will never hear of their ideas because they do not predict China's imminent doom or paint China as some kind of silly one dimensional cartoon baddy, so the mainstream media will never call upon them to put their views across to the wider public. If by some accident their views are put forward to the wider audience, they will be disparaged and attacked as having 'gone native', and their ideas would be dismissed as Chinese propaganda.
But all this deliberate myopia on the part of the west is a double edged sword, and part of the reason Chinese companies have been doing so well internationally of late is partly down to the fact that western firms and their CEOs still keep underestimating the Chinese and are always caught out when they Chinese turn out to not be as stupid and one dimensional as in their delusions. You'd think that pure self interest would force the west to re-evaluate, but it appears they just prefer to chalk all the times China and Chinese firms have exceeded their expectations as evidence that China is cheating somehow. That is why all the baseless Chinese hacking claims are so easy for the west to swallow.
solarz
Brigadier
Another good example:
So the internet wasn't the magic bullet for democracy that some people hoped/touted. Now they're blaming that failure on China's technical abilities. Where they thought the internet was (technologically) untameable, China has apparently done the unthinkable.
They forget that despite the best efforts of Chinese internet censors, information keeps flowing through. Scandals and reports of government corruption abound in the Chinese internet, however "local" it is.
What they can't recognize, or refuse to acknowledge, is that while the internet *did* make a huge impact on Chinese society, it simply wasn't the impact they hoped for (i.e. regime change). Where these guys hoped that stories about the corruption of the Chinese government would incite people to revolt, the reality is that instead, the Chinese government has become increasingly responsive to public discontent, and goes to great lengths to satisfy the Chinese people.
That would almost sound as if the internet helped make the CCP more accountable and a better government. However, that is impossible since the CCP is, by definition, an Evil Communist Dictatorship. So the cause *must* be the Great Firewall.
So the internet wasn't the magic bullet for democracy that some people hoped/touted. Now they're blaming that failure on China's technical abilities. Where they thought the internet was (technologically) untameable, China has apparently done the unthinkable.
They forget that despite the best efforts of Chinese internet censors, information keeps flowing through. Scandals and reports of government corruption abound in the Chinese internet, however "local" it is.
What they can't recognize, or refuse to acknowledge, is that while the internet *did* make a huge impact on Chinese society, it simply wasn't the impact they hoped for (i.e. regime change). Where these guys hoped that stories about the corruption of the Chinese government would incite people to revolt, the reality is that instead, the Chinese government has become increasingly responsive to public discontent, and goes to great lengths to satisfy the Chinese people.
That would almost sound as if the internet helped make the CCP more accountable and a better government. However, that is impossible since the CCP is, by definition, an Evil Communist Dictatorship. So the cause *must* be the Great Firewall.
" That is why all the baseless Chinese hacking claims are so easy for the west to swallow."---PLA Wolf
American's accusing the Chinese of hacking really cracks me up. The American's practically invented the game and wrote the book on hacking and cyber warefare/cyber espionage. It's like a serial rapist accusing a teenage kid of being a pervert because he's buying a girlie magazine in the corner store!
American's accusing the Chinese of hacking really cracks me up. The American's practically invented the game and wrote the book on hacking and cyber warefare/cyber espionage. It's like a serial rapist accusing a teenage kid of being a pervert because he's buying a girlie magazine in the corner store!
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ABC78
Junior Member
Another good example:
So the internet wasn't the magic bullet for democracy that some people hoped/touted. Now they're blaming that failure on China's technical abilities. Where they thought the internet was (technologically) untameable, China has apparently done the unthinkable.
They forget that despite the best efforts of Chinese internet censors, information keeps flowing through. Scandals and reports of government corruption abound in the Chinese internet, however "local" it is.
What they can't recognize, or refuse to acknowledge, is that while the internet *did* make a huge impact on Chinese society, it simply wasn't the impact they hoped for (i.e. regime change). Where these guys hoped that stories about the corruption of the Chinese government would incite people to revolt, the reality is that instead, the Chinese government has become increasingly responsive to public discontent, and goes to great lengths to satisfy the Chinese people.
That would almost sound as if the internet helped make the CCP more accountable and a better government. However, that is impossible since the CCP is, by definition, an Evil Communist Dictatorship. So the cause *must* be the Great Firewall.
Interesting when Joe Lieberman proposed an American version of the Great firewall there are legitimate reasons for such a system.
[video=youtube;ttvuSqaxF-c]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ttvuSqaxF-c[/video]
plawolf says
It is even simpler if you say "control the narrative" and that this control is not arbitrary but highly organised and deliberate.
This means that it is not simply the misrepresentation of China and its policies through the prism of bias and models, but the purposeful misrepresentation of China through the active prism of Western Nations Policy.
I am particularly thinking of the recent comments posted by many posters on the North Korea thread that illustrate this very clearly.
The sub text being given (and expressed on the thread) is that Washington and Beijing both share the same view regarding the regime in Pyongyang. It is almost being suggested that if the US led alliance were to cross the DMZ and topple the regime that China would be at the forefront of the happy cheerleaders. My own posts in that thread show that I strongly detract from that view and have no doubt that any such action would result in an immediate regional conflagration as Russia and China enter the fighting in support of North Korea and bid to eject Western influence from the Peninsular for good.
The distance between the two views is about as absolute as you can get and you would be very justified in asking how; if my view were to be the correct one, could the popular view be so wrong? The answer is simple, it is the perfect illustration of the control of the narrative.
If my view was the published official view, any provocative action taken by the US and its allies in the region would be seen and understood as the reckless actions that they were. If however the current popular narrative of a China supportive of US action and continued presence, is maintained, then in the event of fighting starting, in the way that I contend, then obvious US/ROK recklessness would; on account of control of the narrative, be presented as shocking and unexpected Chinese perfidy.
Q E D
It is even simpler if you say "control the narrative" and that this control is not arbitrary but highly organised and deliberate.
This means that it is not simply the misrepresentation of China and its policies through the prism of bias and models, but the purposeful misrepresentation of China through the active prism of Western Nations Policy.
I am particularly thinking of the recent comments posted by many posters on the North Korea thread that illustrate this very clearly.
The sub text being given (and expressed on the thread) is that Washington and Beijing both share the same view regarding the regime in Pyongyang. It is almost being suggested that if the US led alliance were to cross the DMZ and topple the regime that China would be at the forefront of the happy cheerleaders. My own posts in that thread show that I strongly detract from that view and have no doubt that any such action would result in an immediate regional conflagration as Russia and China enter the fighting in support of North Korea and bid to eject Western influence from the Peninsular for good.
The distance between the two views is about as absolute as you can get and you would be very justified in asking how; if my view were to be the correct one, could the popular view be so wrong? The answer is simple, it is the perfect illustration of the control of the narrative.
If my view was the published official view, any provocative action taken by the US and its allies in the region would be seen and understood as the reckless actions that they were. If however the current popular narrative of a China supportive of US action and continued presence, is maintained, then in the event of fighting starting, in the way that I contend, then obvious US/ROK recklessness would; on account of control of the narrative, be presented as shocking and unexpected Chinese perfidy.
Q E D
ABC78
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