AssassinsMace
Lieutenant General
Oh yeah China was a so much better place when the European colonialists were controlling China before the communists ran them out.
Why "the West" gets China wrong
- Thread starter solarz
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solarz
Brigadier
I don't believe that one bit. There's nothing special about democracy. You don't need to be special to have democracy. If the Philippines can have a democracy, then the Chinese sure as hell can handle it.
That doesn't mean democracy is the most suitable form of government for China right now. Far from it, the authoritarianism of the CCP has made great strides in improving the lives of over a billion people.
Democracy is not the holy grail of governments. It won't magically solve problems of corruption, ignorance, and poverty. It doesn't need particularly noble societies either. The Athenians and pre-civil war Americans had a democracy all the while practicing slavery.
In the end, your kind of comment is no better than those who claim that democracy is the panacea to all of China's woes. They're both based on the assumption that democracy is intrinsically superior to other forms of government. The only difference is that you're arguing only special people can be democratic.
And now, let's drop this line of conversation before it gets too political.
Equation
Lieutenant General
How about a little Communist with Chinese characteristics to get some of those Western governments budget in order? And adapt some more capitalism so that the people can have jobs instead of fulfilling the coffers of the 1%ers with tax breaks and serious loop holes for large companies such as Apple to take advantage of to evade paying corporate taxes. Democracy used to mean something until the liberal media hijacked it for their own purpose and use it as tool to implement their own values upon others who disagrees with them.
Define "superior"; democracy is great for some things and not-so-great for others, but it doesn't make it superior overall.
And yes I am arguing only a population with a sense of responsibility can thrive in a democratic society. With an uneducated mass, democracy would only be chaos. Do I believe China's population has reached the level of education overall to be able to sustain a harmonious democratic society, no. And it appears the CCP agrees that China is not ready for democracy.
As for your examples, namely Athenians and pre-1860s America, they both had populations that had a strong sense of responsibility. The Athenians' sense of responsibility stemmed from their ethics, which was reinforced by the unity they felt against rival city states and invading countries. Pre-1860s Americans had a sense of responsibility to act as good Christians, and a lot of Americans today still do. Both Athenians and pre-1860 Americans had incentives to act responsibly. What do Chinese have as an incentive to act responsibly? Absolutely nothing. The only thing on the minds of the Chinese masses is "money, money, money". This is of course a generalisation, but you get my point.
Chinese masses generally have poor knowledge of climate change, have a skewed sex ratio, lack a sense of patriotism, have no consideration of hygiene, are selfish when in public and countless other faults which indicates they don't have the virtues needed to thrive in a democratic society.
It will take decades to weed out all the bad habits and irresponsible attitudes of the Chinese population; before then, democracy is a big no-no for China.
Interesting that you decided to bring up The Philippines. If I was to use an example to emphasise my point then that is exactly the country that I would use. The last thing I want China to become is The Philippines; need I elaborate more?
Democracy is an extremely broad word.
The introduction of democracy to China could happen but at the same time wouldn't be the same level we see in either the US or even India, we could progressively introduce suffrage based on limited and weighted preconditions, e.g. the Prussian model of the mid-19th century was based on tax payers contributions to society as a whole, those who pay more in taxes gain a lot more in terms of their vote worth more.
Just a thought, democracy doesn't necessarily mean liberalism nor does it mean we have to give up the single party system but at the same time as China's people gain more wealth and education they should be given some form of representation and participation in politics, the Leninist model of autocracy above the people no longer applies to a more educated and wealthy population that has advanced beyond third world status.
The introduction of democracy to China could happen but at the same time wouldn't be the same level we see in either the US or even India, we could progressively introduce suffrage based on limited and weighted preconditions, e.g. the Prussian model of the mid-19th century was based on tax payers contributions to society as a whole, those who pay more in taxes gain a lot more in terms of their vote worth more.
Just a thought, democracy doesn't necessarily mean liberalism nor does it mean we have to give up the single party system but at the same time as China's people gain more wealth and education they should be given some form of representation and participation in politics, the Leninist model of autocracy above the people no longer applies to a more educated and wealthy population that has advanced beyond third world status.
ABC78
Junior Member
When I saw this story it reminded me of this girl in New Jersey years ago that gave birth in a bathroom at prom and left the baby there.
China just needs to implement a Safe Haven system like the US so this sort of stuff doesn't have to go down this way.(pun not intended)
ABC78
Junior Member
The so called "One Child Policy" is a western term for what is officially called the "Family Planning Policy" in China is more of a buzz word to rile up pro lifers and people with yellow fever concerned with a possible shortage of Chinese girls. Since the policy is also much more complex than one kid for every couple.
solarz
Brigadier
If the Athenian sense of ethics was so great, why did they give Socrates that cup of hemlock? In the end, it was still a bunch of elites pissed off at an anti-establishment trouble-maker.
The Americans' Christianity caused them to have a sense of responsibility? Seriously?
Every society has its flaws. While I may have been pointing out some of those flaws in previous posts, that doesn't mean the Chinese people have no sense of responsibility. The Chinese have a sense of familial bond and filial responsibility that dwarfs any society in the West. They respect education, history (arguably too much so), and hard work.
What you described as "unruly" is the traditional Chinese mentality struggling to reconcile itself with the modern reality. This is a crisis of identity that every society undergoing rapid progress must face. While the correct social policies can help ease the crisis, this has nothing to do with the form of government.
Your further claims about the "Chinese masses" are simply wrong. Far more people, proportionally, acknowledge the reality of climate change in China than in the USA. The Chinese have a powerful sense of patriotism. Hygiene is a function of living standards and education, not morality.
Finally, you didn't understand my point about Philippines. For all its trappings of democracy, PH runs much like any other 3rd-world country under dictatorship. The same clans hold the reins of power amidst rampant corruption. PH is not like that because of the way its government works. It's like that because that's the way their society works. PH voters are disenfranchised and willing to be bought with empty promises and outright bribes.
To argue that PH is not "ready" for democracy is to, in effect, argue that democracy is an ideal form of society.
Rather, I would argue that democracy is just one characteristic of an ideal society, with the other characteristics being education, rule of law, and sense of social responsibility. The question is not whether a country is "ready" for democracy, but rather what its priorities should be.
AssassinsMace
Lieutenant General
I've met and come across plenty of Chinese Christians. None have any initiative of their own except to hate on Chinese and most take orders from their "superiors" who aren't Chinese. I can see why it's so important for Christians to turn China into a Christian nation because it's de facto slavery. Besides gotta turn the Chinese into Christians in order to give the Christian god credit for Chinese accomplishments. Look at how many Christians give credit for their successes in life to God as to say favoritism. A country that isn't Christian being successful? You really can't say God favored them because then you can't manipulate people to follow because God hasn't shown you the way to success.
Plus Christians don't like all Christians. So don't be fooled that Christians will all of the sudden like China if they embrace Christianity. Look at right-winger Pat Buchanan. He holds Christianity up like a shield and says the same things all Christian haters say about China. The thing is Pat Buchanan has a reputation of hating minorities in the US and they embrace the Christian God more than the typical liberal.
Also it's joke to claim Christians have been good citizens of the world. I don't need to point to examples in history because we all know it. Ever hear the road to Hell is paved with good intentions? Meaning Hell is filled with people who thought they were doing what's best for everyone else. And guess who more than anyone else uses the motivation of good as an excuse to force people to do things?
Plus Christians don't like all Christians. So don't be fooled that Christians will all of the sudden like China if they embrace Christianity. Look at right-winger Pat Buchanan. He holds Christianity up like a shield and says the same things all Christian haters say about China. The thing is Pat Buchanan has a reputation of hating minorities in the US and they embrace the Christian God more than the typical liberal.
Also it's joke to claim Christians have been good citizens of the world. I don't need to point to examples in history because we all know it. Ever hear the road to Hell is paved with good intentions? Meaning Hell is filled with people who thought they were doing what's best for everyone else. And guess who more than anyone else uses the motivation of good as an excuse to force people to do things?
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