Why "the West" gets China wrong

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solarz

Brigadier
Just came across this article:

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The most telling thing for me in this article are the comments:

comments said:
Guest • 28 minutes ago
I would like to find out information about adopting this precious girl!!
Where could I get info?
•Reply•Share ›

James O'Leary Guest • 9 minutes ago
It's a boy!
•Reply•Share ›

Valerie Halbardier • 25 minutes ago
Where could I get info on this little girl? I would love to adopt!! She is precious.
•Reply•Share ›

L McKee Valerie Halbardier • 20 minutes ago
Valerie, it's a boy.

This, despite the fact that the article mentioned the baby as a boy four times.

It's a pretty apt demonstration of how willingly people are to jump to conclusions that support their existing worldview.
 

bd popeye

The Last Jedi
VIP Professional
This, despite the fact that the article mentioned the baby as a boy four times.

It's a pretty apt demonstration of how willingly people are to jump to conclusions that support their existing worldview.

People do what you describe the World over. It is true that many folks just read the headlines or the first paragraph of a news story. I'm guilty of that.

Here's sina.com version of the same story. Compare.

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Sorry this reply comes a few days late. I don't agree with some of your points but I appreciate your effort to let folks here know about the perspective of many HK people.


I think you are making unwarranted generalizations in the way you describe "the mainland Chinese" as well as when you say "we" to speak for the people in HK. I'm a HK citizen myself and I do not agree with what you expressed here, although I can fully understand where these feelings come from. I also know this sentiment came from many people in HK, not just from you alone. On the other hand, I want to offer my criticism because you’re not just expressing feelings, you are making claims about a group of people, and the claims you made here are, IMO, unsupported and biased.

Yes, some of the incidents you described could be real and accurate (there has been lots of false rumors designed to fuel hatred, so I'm always skeptical when reading, but I know some are true), but do they support any claim towards “the mainland Chinese” as a whole? I don’t think so. Have you thought about how many incidents of inappropriate behaviors were shown among the tens of millions of mainland tourists that goes to HK per year? Have you put the scale of that number into consideration before you label a group of people? Now if we blow up the number of US tourists to the same scale, and with the same SES diversity, do you think there will be significantly less “problem cases”? Having also lived in America for a number of years, I doubt it. This is not to say the Americans are as worse as the mainland Chinese or that they’re both “inferior” to HKers in manners, it is just a simple fact that in every large enough group there will be people with problematic behaviors even though the rest majority could be regular, well-mannered folks like you and me.

Unfortunately, most people are not trained to recognize this. Confirmation bias and selective attention are hard wired into our brains to make us think quicker but not necessarily accurately. The media (both traditional and social media) took advantage of this to create and amplify negative sentiments because they naturally generate more attention and therefore have a competitive advantage over other news. Someone acting like normal is never news, someone acting like a prick is, especially when said person fits into a target stereotype for discrimination. Many people are going to think oh geez look at how disgusting this mainlander is, with a focus on that mainlander label while conveniently ignoring the vast majority of the group who acts respectfully. Then things get more complicated when negative sentiments develop into aggression, and aggression elicits aggressive reaction. Why do some mainlanders make negative or insulting comments towards HKers? Many of those were reactions to insult, discrimination, and arrogance that some people in HK have displayed to mainlanders. In turn those in HK who feel insulted develop more hostile attitudes, and the vicious cycle goes on. None of the insult from either side should be justified, but you need to understand that they both happen for a reason, and it’s not because one group of people has less moral integrity versus the other group. Don't ask for who started it either because what really started it is a conflict of interest plus human's natural tendency of intergroup bias. If an interpretation stays at the level of “they disrespect us first therefore they don’t deserve respect”, it’s never going to resolve anything.

And trust me, it’s not the mainlanders who have the most need to pursue a resolution. By all means, HK’s future depends much more on mainland China than the other way around. I’m very disappointed that many HKers never sees the big picture as they focus on all the issues at the tip of their toes. What does HK have in the long-term to compete with Singapore or Shanghai or even Shenzhen-Guangzhou-Foshan when you look at the structure of its economy? Nothing I can see to foster sustained growth, and putting all your eggs in one basket of virtual economy for a multi-million population is outright dangerous. Yet many people in HK were deceived by the phenomenon that hordes of mainlanders still go to their city to buy stuff, to give birth, or to become an immigrant. It create a false sense of superiority that HK is a place with a better future, others should beg us for our goodies and we don’t have to ask them for anything. In fact we want to keep our goodies for ourselves so they should get the hell out. It is true that HK has many unique benefits that mainlanders desire which is why many of these conflicts started, a conflict of interest and impact to daily life created by supply and demand between two very disproportionally sized markets. Too bad this sense of being in demand has nothing to do with the city’s long-term potential to thrive. It is completely righteous for HKers to complain about the impact to daily life from the excessive number of traveling mainlanders and look into policies to protect their own interests. But by taking a step further to demonize mainland Chinese as a group, we are practically killing our competitiveness.

This is why I don’t like attitudes such as “with this argument you’re not going to change the mainstream opinion in HK” or “You made us behave this way, it's your problem”, it's a sign of arrogance. Who are we to demand others to convince us to make the right call for ourselves? We and only we are responsible for our behavior and our future. There is no way for any country or city to really become successful if its citizens are all about having a sense of entitlement rather than a sense of responsibility. Too bad what I see in today's HK are mostly about the sense of entitlement.


If you’re into multicultural psychology you probably would have learned about the identity development models. The general model by Sue and Sue suggested five possible stages of identity development for cultural/ethnic minorities (including immigrants):

Conformity
Dissonance and appreciating
Resistance and immersion
Introspection
Integrative awareness


There’s also the more specific theory of Kim’s Asian American identity development model

Ethnic awareness
White identification
Awakening to social political consciousness
Redirection
Incorporation


Despite the discrepancy in some of the steps, they both described the phenomenon of people identifying with the mainstream culture and distancing themselves from their culture of origin. This is common when people’s concept of identity was preoccupied with minority oppression, and they struggle to become accepted by the majority. It is not diversification but conformity when the sense of identity is characterized by a fear of being alienated. From my observation, many people who refuse to identify themselves as Chinese (in addition to being HKnese or TWnese) did so to distance themselves from the mostly negative stereotypical image of China which was common in Western societies. Thanks to the dominance of western values in the media, today this may also happen in non-Western countries. It is not that they lied to blend in, but they truly don’t believe they're Chinese because they have internalized those biased values associated the word Chinese, and they can't identify with those biased values. The more difficulties they experience in acculturation, the more strongly they will oppose to a Chinese identity, and the easier they may become agitated when being identified as a Chinese. In this case agitation is driven by stress, and stress is driven by fear. On the other hand, those who lives as an ethnic minority but had a relatively easy time blending in (usually for second or third generation immigrants) rarely show resistance in admitting their Chinese roots, their problem is they may have little knowledge about these roots. So I have to say a better word to describe it is conformity rather than divergence.

True divergence happens near the final stage of identity development which is integration/incorporation. A mature and healthy identity is always unique because it is inclusive and integrative based on all the person's experience and background. One can’t become more unique through exclusion (denying the Chinese/American/HK/TW part of their identity), because the more you take away the hollower you will be. People with a healthy and integrated identity is more capable of accepting a multicultural root and they will have less stress about not being recognized by others. If someone doesn’t know about your culture and makes bad assumptions, it shows their ignorance, not yours. So why deny parts of who you are just to get an people's recognition? Unless social acceptance is still the main challenge. This is mostly consistent with what you described, but I'm pointing out that in terms of identity development this is not somewhere you want to stay forever.




I have yet to read Sue and Sue's papers(although I think I had heard of them as well) as you have referenced, so I will like to ask if you may kindly refer me to the articles and related readings so I can learn more. I do have access to Psycinfo, JSTOR, SAGE, and my campus library journal database, so I can definitely search up on those. As in regards to Kim's, I had also read one of his/her paper at one time(which I ended up referencing for a powerpoint I used for speaking about multiculturalism), and I do want to ask you, if whether you may know if Kim specialize in this area of social psychology which we are speaking of. Kim had written a paper on Self, and I'm wondering if perhaps the one you are referring to here is the same thing.

And for your final argument regarding the "divergence" I had spoken of as well as the article I had referenced, I feel perhaps you should really write an academic response to that article because I really feel you've made a very great point. The studies and the article itself drew those conclusions which seemed very strong, but I felt you had made a great point that perhaps it was conformity that was also actually overlooked.

And personally I very agree with your argument of true divergence. I would reference myself as an example because I have absolutely no shame in displaying my Chinese, Hong Kong, Canadian roots anywhere I go(unless I found myself in the middle of a KKK mob armed with machetes), and I certainly do not feel the need to distant myself from my roots in order to promote or feel comfortable about being who I am. In fact, I even appreciated multiculturalism and at multiple occasions I stressed the beauties of the mosiac.



Anyways, are you currently in Hong Kong or overseas? I wish to discuss further various social phenomenon with you in the near future, ranging from HK's overall social identity into its social construction, to much more.
 
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superdog

Junior Member
I have yet to read Sue and Sue's papers(although I think I had heard of them as well) as you have referenced, so I will like to ask if you may kindly refer me to the articles and related readings so I can learn more. I do have access to Psycinfo, JSTOR, SAGE, and my campus library journal database, so I can definitely search up on those. As in regards to Kim's, I had also read one of his/her paper at one time(which I ended up referencing for a powerpoint I used for speaking about multiculturalism), and I do want to ask you, if whether you may know if Kim specialize in this area of social psychology which we are speaking of. Kim had written a paper on Self, and I'm wondering if perhaps the one you are referring to here is the same thing.

And for your final argument regarding the "divergence" I had spoken of as well as the article I had referenced, I feel perhaps you should really write an academic response to that article because I really feel you've made a very great point. The studies and the article itself drew those conclusions which seemed very strong, but I felt you had made a great point that perhaps it was conformity that was also actually overlooked.

And personally I very agree with your argument of true divergence. I would reference myself as an example because I have absolutely no shame in displaying my Chinese, Hong Kong, Canadian roots anywhere I go(unless I found myself in the middle of a KKK mob armed with machetes), and I certainly do not feel the need to distant myself from my roots in order to promote or feel comfortable about being who I am. In fact, I even appreciated multiculturalism and at multiple occasions I stressed the beauties of the mosiac.
I read your reply earlier during the day but didn't have time to respond until now. I'm glad you find my post useful. I hope you don't take the criticisms in my last post too personally. A lot of it was directed towards trends I observed in HK which you partially described, but given the humility and insight you have shown in your posts I certainly don't see you as an arrogant or short-sighted person. In fact I'd refrain from saying for sure that the majority of people in HK deserve those criticisms in my last post because I personally know plenty of people in HK who are very insightful about cultural and political issues, perhaps more so than I do. But when you only listen to the media in HK, when you read a newspaper, browse on Facebook, or go through the most popular local message boards, you rarely get to hear these voices of reason because they were drowned by voices of anger, voices of sensationalism, and voices of bias. We are so susceptible to emotional and biased thinking that the media in a free market is almost always going to be distorted with an over-representation of voices that caters not to reason, but to the emotional needs of people (geez this sentence is too long). Therefore I want to be skeptical in saying that because such as trend appears 'mainstream' on the media, it must be mainstream among the people. On the other hand, we can't deny the effect that media has on people, especially on the younger generation, so whatever that's mainstream on the media could, in the long run, change what's mainstream among the people.

As for Sue and Sue and Kim's models, I just pulled them off from my old notes when I studied multicultural psychology. For Sue and Sue's model you can refer to their book Counseling the culturally diverse: Theory and practice. They also talked about Kim's theory there although the original came from Jean Kim's dissertation titled Processes of Asian American Identity Development: A Study of Japanese American Women's Perceptions of Their Struggle to Achieve Positive Identities as Americans of Asian Ancestry in 1981. Also, thanks for your encouragement about my views on divergence. I wasn't opposed to the idea presented in the Berger and Heath article, just adding a layer to it. The point is that when someone diverge from a group that's "uncool" it usually means they are driven by a force of cultural conformity that "I need to stay cool (as perceived by others)". Berger and Heath (and you) explained that divergence is a way to get better social recognition, while my concept of conformity refers to what recognition do they want, and why do they want it. I studies psychology professionally, but I'm more of a clinician than a researcher, so lots of my analysis came from personal experience rather than empirical data.

Anyways, are you currently in Hong Kong or overseas? I wish to discuss further various social phenomenon with you in the near future, ranging from HK's overall social identity into its social construction, to much more.
I travel between the US, HK, and mainland China. Recently I stays in the US for most of the time, but in June I'll be in HK and Guangdong for a couple of weeks. You're welcome to bring up any topic and discuss with me, although don't expect me to be an expert in social psychology/sociology. Anyway, it's a pleasure talking to you.
 

AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
Just came across this article:

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The most telling thing for me in this article are the comments:



This, despite the fact that the article mentioned the baby as a boy four times.

It's a pretty apt demonstration of how willingly people are to jump to conclusions that support their existing worldview.

I believe it was the Onion that did two different stories where one they fake reported that a woman in was going to have twins and the government was forcing her to do a Sophie's Choice and choose which was going to full term and be born and the other was to be aborted. Then there was another story that reported a woman was going to give something like septuplets and the government was going to same and abort all but one. Both cases people in the US were outraged at the news and were trying claim the babies like they were a puppy litter.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
I just don't get the Onion at all, just seems so stupid, pointless and juvenile to deliberately fabricate believable news stories just to trick people. Its not like many of their made up stories are even remotely funny either.
 

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
Normally I leave this thread alone, but on this I must correct PLA wolf. Not a single story in the Onion is believable unless you live in North Korea. They have a absolute nonsense policy.
 

Mr T

Senior Member
It's a pretty apt demonstration of how willingly people are to jump to conclusions that support their existing worldview.

Or that some people (I think it was the same person - the word "precious" was used in both posts) don't read articles. That's a trait that manifests in most countries.
 

solarz

Brigadier
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article said:
Yang Jianhua, director of the Research Institution of ZASS, said the case exposed weaknesses in public civil education, especially in the attitude toward marriage and bearing a child.

"Society, family and relevant government departments are all to be held accountable for this case," said Yang, adding that the young couple themselves have not truly realized the outcome that might be brought about by their indiscreet affairs.

Blaming the government again. No, the government isn't to blame in this case. They're to be praised for acting swiftly and decisively to rescue this baby. The fact that the police decided not to press charges against the mother and allow her to be reunited with her baby is another praise-worthy act of compassion.

The blame lies entirely in the social attitude of the Chinese people themselves toward sexuality.

article said:
Zhong Qi, associate researcher with the sociology institution at the Zhejiang Academy of Social Sciences (ZASS), said that it is notable from sporadic cases of newborn babies being abandoned or mistreated in China that many young unmarried people lack a sense of responsibility in this regard.

Gee, ya think????
 

jobjed

Captain
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Blaming the government again. No, the government isn't to blame in this case. They're to be praised for acting swiftly and decisively to rescue this baby. The fact that the police decided not to press charges against the mother and allow her to be reunited with her baby is another praise-worthy act of compassion.

The blame lies entirely in the social attitude of the Chinese people themselves toward sexuality.



Gee, ya think????

This is the population the West is yelling for democracy to be introduced to. Until Chinese society becomes MUCH more refined, democracy would be detrimental to the development of China. A bunch of unruly people ruling themselves will result in unruly children for many generations to come.
 
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