Why PAK-FA So Cheap Compared To F-22 and F-35?

Air Force Brat said:

Mr. Mig, I often defend you, but lets be clear Komrad, you are not Russian, but for whatever reason you spread that Krappola.
I reaasured her during that time when she didn't know that she was a Conquistidore, so please do not be ashamed of your Latin heritage.

Now, I Loooove the T-50, it is a beautifull aeroplane and should turn out to be a super-Flanker, which I also love, along with the Akula class submarine, so evil looking, so I do sympathize with and admire the Russian goodies. Don't mistake anything I have written as disrespectfull, I have full respect and although I was not born, I realize the Russian/Chinese Migs gave us a run for our money in Korea, and later on in SEA, one of the reasons I know that there is still a lot of cooperation in Russian and Chinese military projects, in spite of the protestations of many of our fellow posters.

But you should stick to the facts, the lovely T-50 is NO match for the F-22, nor will it ever be, the F-22 is a primo fighter, because when it was designed and built, money was no object, it was to be the best, and it is, but is not easily replicated or reverse engineered, it is a very sophisticate aeroplane, it will never be cheap........ Brat

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Brat, i have never claimed i am russian, i have always said i am Mexican, in fact if you checked the several post i made in this sub-forum i said i am latin american, i even defended argentina, i have even said i have basque origin, but being Mexican, does not mean all my family is native american, i basicly have basque, Spanish, Arab, Native american and Jewish blood.

I have family from Russia, Poland, the US and since my family like any latin american family is a mix of hybrids ranging from people of Nigeria to costarica.
I have familiy married to a Russian, very close relative, in fact that when i contact him, i have to speak Russian some times to contact my relative, which is a very close one.
I also have jewish relatives in Israel.
But i also have family in the US, to be honest i have family who fought for the US in WWI, WWII, the Korean war, family who were stationed in japan, Germany and Italy as part of the US forces.
In fact in my familiy we have relatives married to white americans and soon we might have african americans
And to the surprise of some here i do have even Family from China, since my Mother`s brother married a daughter of Chinese immigrants.

So i am not biased as many think, but if i am going to say what the Russians say, i will be honest, being Latin american and having 1/3 of my family in the US and even relatives who are americans since 1900 and have fought wars in the US behave, it won`t make me be bias towards T-50 and claim F-22 or F-35 are invulnerable.

To start, Mexico`s aerospace is linked to the US and Europe, but i do not swallow the idea that F-22 is invulnerable or F-117 was.

Stealth is just a technology to reduce refelctivity in some frequencies, both Russia and Europe claim they have the ability.
to detect stealth by using pasive, bi-static and UHF radars.

I am sure the US knows it, however like in any weaposn race every step one side do the other tries to counter, so If the Russians have radars that detect F-22, the next step i think will by faster jets with even more stealth.

In fact if i am proud of something in aerospace is my Basque origin because ITP designs low pressure turbines in Mexico and that company is from the Basque country and also designs the TVC nozzles for Eurofighter

MiG-29 said:

Brat, i have never claimed i am russian, i have always said i am Mexican, in fact if you checked the several post i made in this sub-forum i said i am latin american, i even defended argentina, i have even said i have basque origin, but being Mexican, does not mean all my family is native american, i basicly have basque, Spanish, Arab, Native american and Jewish blood.

I have family from Russia, Poland, the US and since my family like any latin american family is a mix of hybrids ranging from people of Nigeria to costarica.
I have familiy married to a Russian, very close relative, in fact that when i contact him, i have to speak Russian some times to contact my relative, which is a very close one.
I also have jewish relatives in Israel.
But i also have family in the US, to be honest i have family who fought for the US in WWI, WWII, the Korean war, family who were stationed in japan, Germany and Italy as part of the US forces.
In fact in my familiy we have relatives married to white americans and soon we might have african americans
And to the surprise of some here i do have even Family from China, since my Mother`s brother married a daughter of Chinese immigrants.

So i am not biased as many think, but if i am going to say what the Russians say, i will be honest, being Latin american and having 1/3 of my family in the US and even relatives who are americans since 1900 and have fought wars in the US behave, it won`t make me be bias towards T-50 and claim F-22 or F-35 are invulnerable.

To start, Mexico`s aerospace is linked to the US and Europe, but i do not swallow the idea that F-22 is invulnerable or F-117 was.

Stealth is just a technology to reduce refelctivity in some frequencies, both Russia and Europe claim they have the ability.
to detect stealth by using pasive, bi-static and UHF radars.

I am sure the US knows it, however like in any weaposn race every step one side do the other tries to counter, so If the Russians have radars that detect F-22, the next step i think will by faster jets with even more stealth.

In fact if i am proud of something in aerospace is my Basque origin because ITP designs low pressure turbines in Mexico and that company is from the Basque country and also designs the TVC nozzles for Eurofighter

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Thank you for that, and I am not picking on you, in fact I think you have matured greatly in the last year or so, it is helpfull for us all to understand one another, now you know that I am a big T-50 fanboy, it is a little irrational, and I like the J-20 a great deal as well, but both those lovely girls do not come up to the Raptor in term of supercruise, stealth, or at this stage agility. Having said that the Raptor is not invincible, nor do I ever use the term Air Dominance, it is a misnomer who will make you overconfident and get you killed or worse to lose the war.
The F-117 was very, very stealthy, but you have to admit the one we lost in the balkans must have been having a bad day, it was a very ugly airplane and flew rather poorly, why it came to be nicknamed the "woblin goblin", it was used very succesfully to prosecute "desert storm" as were all of our coalition assets. My point is the F-117 was very primitive and not the least agile, it was def first gen in stealth, and likely 2nd gen in ACM.
I am happy that you have family in the Russian Aerospace industry, but you and I both know that lots of what the Russians put out is pure old Krap, with a little truth and pretty paint thrown on for dressing, not saying that others don't do this, but with them it is an art form.
Others on here are not so gratious, their team also loves to spin, and our team spins a little, but we often have the hardware to back it up, thanks for a nice conversation, and me I'm just a dumb hillbilly that likes aeroplanes, sometimes I get to thinking I'm smart, but thats when I get in trouble? Have a good day, and if your in the neighborhood drop by and we'll go visit bd popeye, if he's in a good mood.Brat

Air Force Brat said:

Thank you for that, and I am not picking on you, in fact I think you have matured greatly in the last year or so, it is helpfull for us all to understand one another, now you know that I am a big T-50 fanboy, it is a little irrational, and I like the J-20 a great deal as well, but both those lovely girls do not come up to the Raptor in term of supercruise, stealth, or at this stage agility. Having said that the Raptor is not invincible, nor do I ever use the term Air Dominance, it is a misnomer who will make you overconfident and get you killed or worse to lose the war.

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I will be honest, since you know i am latin American, and in reality, my nation is basicly a US ally, first because we have so many mexicans in the US that basicly if the US is doing well, we do well.
But let me tell you my unbias opinion.

Is F-22 the top fighter?
In my opinion it is not in some areas now.
Compared to Rafale, Su-35 and Typhoon, in WVR is now pretty much or less on par with them and i think PAKFA is better in agility.

Supercruise? well PAKFA seems to be as good as F-22 but i think itF-22 is better than Typhoon, Rafale and Su-35.

Stealth?
Well it is the best of all of them.
Probably F-35 and J-20 might be close and PAKFA is stealthy but without aerodynamic compromises.

Sensors?
I think the Russians with PAKFA are getting a machine it must be as good as F-22 and perhaps better due to VHF radars, 3 AESAs and a IRST system.


Do i think Europe lies when they say the have a Passive radar capable to detect stealth?
No i do not think so, i think Europe has a real anti-stealth radar, capable of tracking the F-22 without F-22 even notice it at a range stealth might be useless.

Do i think Russia does not have radars capable of detecting stealth aircraft?
No i do not, i think Russia has those radars.


Now to know which aircraft is topdog, you need both jets fighting at their full of their abilities.

Since F-22 and T-50 have never face each other no one knows how they will really perform in real combat.

So i will put it in this way at this moment both Sukhoi and Lockheed can claim they have the best fighter.

we only will believe what we want to believe, but in my opinion in the US they are very likely already designing a 6th generation fighter to beat PAKFA since Russia very likely has achieve parity.

Okay I've seen enough.
>TE Engage.

First Anti Stealth.
The F117 was compromised. But if you look at the History Of the American Stealth Program you would realize that the Tech in It was decades old.
Fun Facts
1 The F117 was a Direct development of the Have blue Demonstrator Scailed up too a Bomber.
2 No Two F117's were identical, They were all hand built and one offs.
3 In between the F117's Stealth and the F22 The Us built not one but four different generations of Stealth.
Have blue lead too Tasset Blue The Aurora ( Which was a demonstrator for B2 not the Uber SR71 some like too maker to be.) B2 and then YF22 and YF23. So Any Advances made too Counter F117 are obsolete.


WVR Raptor will out Turn Eagle,Typhoon, Flanker,Fulcrum,Rafale And likely both the J31 and J20 yes save perhaps for the Pak-Fa but beyond that The Russian Fighter will find it's self at a disadvantage.
1 The US has never stopped improvement programs too it's stealth tech New Coatings new electronic Developments and material Sciences are coming online.
2 American Missiles are top and both Raptor and Lightning packs the leaders in the pack.
3 Pak Fa sacrifices Stealth For Agility She Also Sacrifices Sensors. Russian Electronics have always lagged due too the design limitations placed on them for cost and thermal conditions in Russia. The Russians have been playing catch up in the last few decades but a lot of there systems are still based on off the shelf. The F35 is next gen. Her systems are directly derived form the F22's meaning that are capable to being retrofitted.
Part of the Reason I suspect that the Pak Fa is at this point so Cheap is She is using Off the Shelf. Even when Completed Her systems will be off the Shelf tech.

Can The European Forces Detect A F22? Maybe, I doubt it, but really would A European nation ever go too war against the US?No

Can the Russians or the Chinese?
Doubtful.

And one last thought About Anti stealth, If As you say There are sensors That render Stealth Aircraft Obsolete. Then Why Are the Russians( Pak-Fa, Mig LMF), The Chinese( J20 and J31), , The South Korean's, The Turkish All looking too or already building there own? If Lightning's Stealth is So flawed Why are a large number of top nations salivating to paint F35's in there national colors? Just the latest fad?
The Answer is The Game Changed. Every Air force on Earth is looking to try and keep up with the new Game. F22 and F35 at the moment are still too be Feared and Envied. The Russians and the Chinese are looking to try and counter the new capabilities And they feel that Fifth gen is a real innovation they need. but it takes time and as they work the Us and it's allies will also be working too keep the game too there rules.

MiG-29 said:

The problem with stealth is it is too expensive and the way to design counter stealth technology is much cheaper.
The F-117 costed millions but it was downed by a much cheaper SAM.

The Russians are not designing a machine so expensive that can be downed by cheaper weapons, the aircraft is designed to fly first better than F-22 and achieve the ability to see F-22 first.
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The Russians are not designing stealth because it's beyond their capabilities, it's as simple as that.
That's why T50 is cheap, it's not very stealthy.

TerraN_EmpirE said:

WVR Raptor will out Turn Eagle,Typhoon, Flanker,Fulcrum,Rafale And likely both the J31 and J20 yes save perhaps for the Pak-Fa but beyond that The Russian Fighter will find it's self at a disadvantage.
1 The US has never stopped improvement programs too it's stealth tech New Coatings new electronic Developments and material Sciences are coming online.

Can The European Forces Detect A F22? Maybe, I doubt it, but really would A European nation ever go too war against the US?No

Can the Russians or the Chinese?
Doubtful.

.

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Well it seems you think radars do not see stealth;to start stealth is not invisible to radar but by true definition very low observable and by low observable it means it reduces the range of detection.

Now RCS is directly related to wattage of the radar, more wattage more powerful radar and you can see further.
However high frequency radars are see further than shorter wavebands.


Range of detection is a function of the power of the
sending radar waves multiplied by the size of the radar cross
section, with that result then affected by wavelength. To examine
the first variable, the wattage of radar energy sent out
by the radar affects how many of the waves are returned to
the antenna area off a given reflective area: the RCS. More
wattage will boost this number; but the RCS variable will continue
to divide out a significant portion of the potential return.

Hence, RCS varies
with wavelength. For a constant area and range, the difference
between X‑band and VHF wavelengths results in a
dramatic variation in RCS.



So let us see, PAKFA has powerful engines that allow increased wattage to its radar, it has 3 AESAs one in front, two to the sides, increasing the angular view, since AESAs radar have a more limited view than mechanically scanned radars.
Later it has IRST system and two VHF radars on the wings.

So do you understand what that does mean?

The machine is designed to hunt stealthy fighters, plus it flies at Mach 1.8 and has ability to go Mach 2.3 thanks to its variable geometry intake.


Eurofighter has HMS that basicly neutralize the obsolete AIM-9M of F-22 that lack helmet mounted sights and better missiles so basicly Eurofighter can fight in WVR with F-22 on equal term, plus Europe has this machine designed in Germany.



Cassidian, the defence and security division of EADS, has developed what is known as "passive radar" that can locate even difficult-to-detect flying objects such as stealth aircraft and that itself is practically undetectable. In contrast to conventional radar, passive radar doesn't emit any radiation, but instead analyses radiation reflections from other emitters, such as radio and television stations, to detect objects.


Plus a detail faceting only sends a strong reflection to another direction, so if the Eurofighters or Su-35 use data link and group hundting they can detect stealth fighters


According to Laurie Hilditch, Eurofighter's head of future requirements capture, the F-35's frontal-aspect stealth can be defeated by stationing interceptors and AWACS at a 25º to 30º angle to the F-35's most likely approach path to a target.

this is because of pacman signature type that most stealth fighters have

First I know Stealth is not invisability it's camoflage. What your not getting is It's very advanced Camoflage and only going too get better. Second

Range of detection is a function of the power of the
sending radar waves multiplied by the size of the radar cross
section, with that result then affected by wavelength.

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Raptor, Lightning, Typhoon Use a LPIR system.

Low probability of intercept (LPI) is that property of an emitter that because of its low power, wide bandwidth, frequency variability, or other design attributes, makes it difficult to be detected or identified by means of passive intercept devices such as radar warning, electronic support and electronic intelligence receivers, In order to detect LPI radar waveforms new signal processing techniques are required.

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Next you seem to place a lot of Importence on the IRST. Lightings are equipped with the AN/AAQ-37 electro-optical Distributed Aperture System, Not a Single system but Multiple all over the Craft.

Raptors at the moment lack such a system However by the Time Pak fa hist the Air in Production Form It's likely that Lockmart will have modified the AN/AAR-56 Missile Launch Detector (MLD) to provide ISRT functions

Now Raptor Top speed is Classified but most have placed it at And those veriable intake ramps are know bullseyes too radar. The Russians Know this that's Why the said PAk fa has inferior stealth. ITop speed on The F22 is classified but guesses Range up to Mach2.4 and Faster.
The Radar used in the Pak Fa is a variant of the Irbis E Which though Impressive is still inferarior to the ANAPG 77 and 81. Pak Fa is not a stealh killer it's a Air superiority fighter meant to try and hold the line.

Okay So they have a ground mounted station. Not a Air mounted. Second Typhoons and Flankers are not the only ones who can trade Data Both Raptor and Lightning indeed all US aircraft can.
Aim-9X is coming online. Raptor is still lacking one but guess what

Yes Typhoon does have it's HMCS but That is not the end all be all of fighters. Typhoon took a few simulated fights against a Raptor Dispite Raptor being super manoverable well guess what Just means the Pilots were good. And the same can happen to Pakfa and SU's and Migs.
So you find a way around the stealth great now what you still have a fighter that can put up a top fight, And Lightnings although less capible are still more then enough to take out AEW craft Oh yeah and of course theres the fact that the AN APG81 can function as a Jammer.

TerraN_EmpirE said:

First I know Stealth is not invisability it's camoflage. What your not getting is It's very advanced Camoflage and only going too get better. Second

.

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You have too much faith in stealth.

Passive radars and IRST are unjammable, the Cassidian radar is not vulnerable to jamming.

Stealth technology conventionally works by minimising the reflective profile of an object, with perhaps the most famous example being the iconic triangular-ish Northrop Grumman B-2 Spirit bomber. Conventional radar systems emit signals which then "bounce" off objects, giving away their location (exactly how a bat "see" in the dark using noise) -- the B-2's shape, wide and shallow with perpendicular surfaces, absorbs those signals (or reflects them away from any detector) to avoid revealing its presence.

The system Cassidian proposes, however, wouldn't be fooled by standard stealth cloaking techniques because it takes advantage of a range of signals which surround us constantly. There's no need to fire out signals and look for their reflections -- instead, the detector system looks at a host of signals floating in the atmosphere already (like aforementioned radio and mobile phone signals) and looks for how they're blocked or altered by having to pass through or around objects. Triangulating several different sources can build up a picture of a landscape or airspace, with stealth planes and ships just as visible as everything else.
source

So Eurofighter can be linked to passive radars and its own radar working in groups will do the rest add IRST systens which are passive, then F-35 has no advantage.


Russia also has passive radars.


T-50 also has an AESA, like Nevo radar system has an AESA, add UHF radars and IRST the F-22 does not enjoy any advantage.

see this news


Indra has recently completed the development and demonstration of the functionalities of a passive high-resolution primary radar system. The project was sponsored by the European Defence Agency (EDA).

This is the first passive system in the world that is capable of offering images with the application of inverse synthetic aperture radar (ISAR) techniques.

Designed to detect, identify and track air targets, including «stelth» threats, at long ranges and transmit range and azimuth data to indicators and other radar-interfaced devices. The radar antennas, equipment and the autonomous electric power plant are carried by three cross-country trucks and two trailers, which allows deploy- ment of the radar in hard-to-reach areas. The radar can be powered by industrial mains
55Zh6-1 NEBO MOBILE METRIC-WAVE 3-D RADAR

Designed to detect, identify and track air targets, including «stelth» threats, at long ranges and transmit range, azimuth and altitude data to indicators and other radar-interfaced devices. In the vertical plane, an electronic height-finding beam scanning is accom- plished without the use of phase shifters.

5N84AE OBORONA-14 MOBILE METRIC-BAND 2-D RADAR
Designed to detect, identify and track air targets, including «stelth» threats, at long ranges and transmit range and azimuth data to indicators and other radar-interfaced devices. The radar equipment is carried by six transportation units (two semitrailers carry the antenna-mast assembly, two other semitrailers carry the radar equipment, and the remaining two semitrailers carry the electric power plant). The radar can be powered by industrial mains

Mig if you point a radar at the bottom of any air craft it will be visible. I know that. And nothing is jam proof point a powerful enough signal at it and it will be blind. Now first here is the problem.
1 I think you need to vs date your understanding of stealth. Yes first generation stealth was either reflecting or absorbing radar but b2 which is third generation stealth also factors in reduced heat via mixing and controling its heat. It all so uses a flying wing configuration reducing the vertical surfaces and therefore number of possible reflections. Think of it as minimalist stealth. Where F117 went out of its way to be a radar reflector with bombs later aircraft deflect only where needed. F22 and F35 both lack IR suppression true and for the time being I will give you that IRST is effective but only near or at visual range as for jamming one a laser dazzlers could knock it out. That's today's tech. there is the to the now emerging passive system like Cassard its not ready no current aircraft have it as you pointed out its ground based at the moment and will likely take years if not decades to reach maturity . But when ready USAF craft like F22 are just as likely to have it. And new types of stealth are just as likely to be online to counter it. Here why dont I use another new tech to counter you the AdaptV system can change the thermal image of a craft masking it as either another craft or part of its environment if in combination with new engines Make IRST useless. Sure its only in ground vehicles now but in a decade
2 but lets stay with reality. The radar on PAK FA is a passive electronically scanned array. PESA is the most commonly used phased array radar. Its passive only in that it uses a single radio source as opposed to a AESA that uses multiple emitters allowing the same detection quality across multiple frequencys at lower power . The PESA in the T50 is Xband not some super new radar the system would likely be able to spot low observable types sure but only at reduced ranges. The side radar is L band which suffers in terms of resolution. Sticking to reality. F22 is in operations today she can and will be updated to meet the needs of tomorrow. Ef2000 might spot a F22 but that F22 will already be well aware of the typhoon and be very very close having seen it coming from a long ways off before hand. As for F35 she is coming and will be on duty well T50 is still teetheing.

TerraN_EmpirE said:

but lets stay with reality. The radar on PAK FA is a passive electronically scanned array. PESA is the most commonly used phased array radar. .

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Your information about T-50 Radar is wrong terrain, T-50 has 3 AESAs, not one but 3, plus 2 additional UHF radars on the wings.


Also Russia has already operational Nevo radars.
Nebo has aesa radar with other UHF radars, the system is very capable in fact russia claims they have the ability to down a soccer ball size RCS target at 400 km away flying at supersonic speeds and can detect targets up to 600km away with S-400
See this video

[video=youtube;yxUnnbZDqAc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yxUnnbZDqAc&list=HL1363528939&feature=mh_lolz[/video]


Now let us be ultrafair, Lockheed claims their stealth is capable, but also Russia claims they can detct stealth, unless they go head to head, botha re claiming what they think they can do, up to know