Why PAK-FA So Cheap Compared To F-22 and F-35?

Simple answer to the opening question is timing.

The F22 and F35 unit price were quoted as a fraction of their eventual actual cost at such an early stage in their respective development cycles, and I would be amazed if the production PAK-FA actually ends up costing anything close to $54m.

The F22 was originally supposed to cost $35m each with a production run of 750 units. But as reality started to hit home and projected unit price kept rising, total production numbers were cut again and again, meaning unit price skyrocketed more. In 2009, the incremental price was $138m, but if you factor in the development cost and all the extras, the GAO came to about $412m per plane.

Similar deal with the F35 and I really cannot see why the PAK-FA would be any different.

Right now, the prices are so different because you are comparing apples to oranges. Wait till the PAK-FA is in full production and see what it costs then, and compare that to the F22 and F35 production price. Only then can we start to look at other factors that might result in the price different between the types.

I am all for Siegecrossbow's explanation or prediction here. The Russian are a group of very innovative people who often came up with interesting and usable ideas. Not implying that the Americans are not innovative though. However from my experience with the Americans in my line of work (nothing close to defence industry though), I found that many solution provided by an average American's designer, although workable and very innovative but are somewhat very expensive and complicated to build as compared to the Chinese counterparts (although, the latter's solution might not really be as ideal when it came to operation, but... hey... you need to factor in cost too).

I remember a joke many many years back (not sure if it was still valid or accurate). The US sent men up to space. They found that at 0 gravity, their ball point pen don't work, thus when they came down, they started designing a pen, pressurised and something like that, the overall R&d cost spiral to an increduleous level. The Russian (or was it French? can't remember), sent their men up to space and use pencil to write.

legoboy said:

F-22 - 150m
F-35 - 107m
PAK-FA - 54m
What makes the PAK-FA so much cheaper?
Cheaper construction? Cheaper parts?

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Don't read too much into the $54 million figure. Wait until the plane is actually in production.

legoboy said:

F-22 - 150m
F-35 - 107m
PAK-FA - 54m

What makes the PAK-FA so much cheaper?

Cheaper construction? Cheaper parts?

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Well all this pricing is rather nebulous, the F-35 will likely be at least 150 apiece as well, most of that cost is labor and associated benefits, Americans in the aerospace business are paid very handsomely for their services, and while they are amazing, autoworkers have been very well paid as well, and part of that is building in additional capability. The F-22 is a monumental engineering and aerodynamic masterpiece, conceived, designed and built at the very pinnacle of American ingenuity, it was a money is no object aircraft, it is a Ferrari, the Pak Fa T-50 is a Ferrari body built on Corvette running gear, it looks like the Ferrari, and in many instances can match its performance, but it is still a Corvette underneath, the F-35 is a Camaro SS, not as fast, not as good on the twistys, but still a very respectable everyday ride.

Now if labor costs were the same, they are all within spitting distance of one another price wise and will perform in a similar manner, now when it come to maintenance the F-22 is the Ferrari---keep your wrenches out and leave your checkbook on the dash, the Pak Fa as a rebodied vette is going to need some tweaking fairly frequently as well, the F-35 well it will be back at the dealership for lots of warranty work keeping all these doo-dads up and running, its not as fast, but its not a total pooch either. AFB

adeptitus said:

Don't read too much into the $54 million figure. Wait until the plane is actually in production.

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Yes, the Russians, ah hummh, they do like to spin things and they don't always tell you what is what, maybe watch the movie K-19 for a taste of that???? That is life under communism, lots of hard work to go around, the perks are reserved for the party faithfull???? Brat

Air Force Brat said:

Yes, the Russians, ah hummh, they do like to spin things and they don't always tell you what is what, maybe watch the movie K-19 for a taste of that???? That is life under communism, lots of hard work to go around, the perks are reserved for the party faithfull???? Brat

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I'd cite the INS Vikramaditya as an example, where $800 million turned into $2.35 billion.

Air Force Brat said:

Yes, the Russians, ah hummh, they do like to spin things and they don't always tell you what is what, maybe watch the movie K-19 for a taste of that???? That is life under communism, lots of hard work to go around, the perks are reserved for the party faithfull???? Brat

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Spining things is not only a Russian thing in fact it seems Lockheed does tha same, watch this video, (not movie but real life documentary by Australian TV) from a potential buyer of F-35


[video=youtube;pteMgYPm1xM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=pteMgYPm1xM[/video]

siegecrossbow said:

Lower cost of production means more competitive market price.

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I would agree, but in my opinion is PAKFA is not fully compromised by Stealth, so it is a more conventional 5th generation fighter, using alternative technologies to achieve stealth such Jamming, composites all over the skin, but what it did surprise me in my opinion is the use of 5 independent radars 3 AESAs and 2 decimetric wave radars, these 2 decimetric radars are UHF radars, these frequency makes stealth shaping almost ineffective and RAM almost useless.

[video=youtube;KW0x2EDghbE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=KW0x2EDghbE[/video]

If you watch this video at minute 4:00 to 4:20 you will see, it has UHF radars monted on the wing




UHF is an acronym for Ultra-high frequency and designates the ITU radio frequency range of electromagnetic waves between 300 MHz and 3 GHz (3,000 MHz), also known as the decimetre band or decimetre wave as the wavelengths range from one to ten decimetres







The focus in Russian CVLO radar has been in the 1-meter VHF band. Stealth shaping in fighters is largely ineffective in VHF because components such as stabilizers and wingtips have dimensions close to the radar wavelength. Radar-absorbent treatments developed for S-band and above are ineffective in VHF due to both electrical behavior and thickness. The flagship product is the NNIIRT/Almaz-Antey 55Zh6M Nebo M 3-D radar system, of which 100 were recently ordered to re-equip Russian air defense forces. The Nebo M is uniquely a “multi-band” design, comprising three radars and a central data fusion and command post module, all carried on separate high-mobility 8 x 8 24-ton vehicles.




The Nebo-SVU was credited with space-time adaptive processing technology similar to that or the Northrop Grumman E-2D Hawkeye, and in 2002 NNIIRT's Igor Krylov said “We can see the stealth [F-117A] as clearly as any other plane”.

Air Force Brat said:

The F-22 is a monumental engineering and aerodynamic masterpiece, conceived, designed and built at the very pinnacle of American ingenuity, it was a money is no object aircraft, it is a Ferrari, the Pak Fa T-50 is a Ferrari body built on Corvette running gear, it looks like the Ferrari, and in many instances can match its performance, but it is still a Corvette underneath, the F-35 is a Camaro SS, not as fast, not as good on the twistys, but still a very respectable everyday ride.

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The problem with stealth is it is too expensive and the way to design counter stealth technology is much cheaper.
The F-117 costed millions but it was downed by a much cheaper SAM.

The Russians are not designing a machine so expensive that can be downed by cheaper weapons, the aircraft is designed to fly first better than F-22 and achieve the ability to see F-22 first.

[video=youtube;C5UwhsD43rQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5UwhsD43rQ&feature=player_embedded#at=1043[/video]

watch minute 17 of that video and see F-117 costed USD$ 40 million, while the missile that down it only USD $80000 dollars, so the SAM that downed the F-117 costed at least more than 40 times less.

See in the video they claim they detected the F-117.

MiG-29 said:

The problem with stealth is it is too expensive and the way to design counter stealth technology is much cheaper.
The F-117 costed millions but it was downed by a much cheaper SAM.

The Russians are not designing a machine so expensive that can be downed by cheaper weapons, the aircraft is designed to fly first better than F-22 and achieve the ability to see F-22 first.

[video=youtube;C5UwhsD43rQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5UwhsD43rQ&feature=player_embedded#at=1043[/video]

watch minute 17 of that video and see F-117 costed USD$ 40 million, while the missile that down it only USD $80000 dollars, so the SAM that downed the F-117 costed at least more than 40 times less.

See in the video they claim they detected the F-117.

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Mr. Mig, I often defend you, but lets be clear Komrad, you are not Russian, but for whatever reason you spread that Krappola.
The real truth is Russia does not have a handle on L/O, the F-117 was an antique, thats why they have been withdrawn from service, the B-2 and F-22 are very, very, stealthy, and your nonsense about the T-50 being a different kind of fifth gen is more Krappola and loading it down with radars will just make it heavier and give the pilot a false sense of security, so lets cut to the chase here, the T-50 is not in the same league as the F-22, its not a true fifth gen if its not very stealthy? I think you are making a great effort to be Objective, I think you and the engineer are both very bright and somewhat intuitive aerodynamicists, but quoting this Russian propaganda, does not an aero engineer make. Now one thing you are right about is that stealth is very expensive, one reason we will likely not see another F-22ski, and the main reason the Russians are desparate to sell the Su-35 to China is to generate a little cash to plow into the T-50.
Now my lovely wife the honey badger is adopted and we had both assumed that she was Latino, she blended in very nicely when we were in San-Antonio, after she found her Dad, who had passed, turns out she is a very Dark complected German, as was her Dad and his brothers???? I reaasured her during that time when she didn't know that she was a Conquistidore, so please do not be ashamed of your Latin heritage.

Now, I Loooove the T-50, it is a beautifull aeroplane and should turn out to be a super-Flanker, which I also love, along with the Akula class submarine, so evil looking, so I do sympathize with and admire the Russian goodies. Don't mistake anything I have written as disrespectfull, I have full respect and although I was not born, I realize the Russian/Chinese Migs gave us a run for our money in Korea, and later on in SEA, one of the reasons I know that there is still a lot of cooperation in Russian and Chinese military projects, in spite of the protestations of many of our fellow posters.

But you should stick to the facts, the lovely T-50 is NO match for the F-22, nor will it ever be, the F-22 is a primo fighter, because when it was designed and built, money was no object, it was to be the best, and it is, but is not easily replicated or reverse engineered, it is a very sophisticate aeroplane, it will never be cheap........ Brat