Whats the future of Flankers in plaaf

Dear Crobato:

If as you say, China is continuing production of the Su-27/J-11's by ordering parts directly from Russian suppliers, does it mean that the program to produce the aircraft indigenously failed, or is it that the other aircraft you mentioned - the J-11A? or J11B is the one slated for indigenous production?

As to specifics, what became of China's plans to make the following:

1) the engine
2) the radar
3) the avionics

Thanks in advance

Dusky Lim

Well if they are ordering more russian engines, it led us to suspect wheter the WS-10 is as advanced stage as sometimes indicated...

By the way, when we got to the engineissue, just to make it sure, the J-11 is using the AL-31F and J-10 is using the AL-31FN, right? Can there be any confusion to which particular engines are the Chinese ordering? I mean the biggest claim on behalf J-10 quite outstanding production rate is the engineorders and deliverings...

So can there be a mix in the information that perhaps the enginepatch ordered is in some "analyses" is going for the both planes?? Or is there clear indications that the above mistake couldn't be possiple

crobato said:

We certainly know from KANWA and Jane's [pls don't ask me again for links and articles that you can only obtain through paid subscription] that China has reordered another large batch of engines as well as an order for the IRSTs. It is interesting to know that the J-11 uses the more advanced IRST system found in the Su-30s and Su-35s (greater range, allows for laser targeting with LGBs) than the standard IRST basic with the Su-27.

However, I have not seen any large order for radars which leads me to suspect that the new J-11 batches isn't exactly J-11A or J-11B but something in between. More like a transitionary variant where the plane may be using indigneous radar but still coupled to some Russian avionics like the IRST and uses Russian engines.

China isn't ordering kits anymore but they're sourcing individual components directly from the parts manufacturers. I guess they're getting it a lot cheaper this way instead of Sukhoi acting like a middle man and creaming a little bit of profit from the deals.

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you know, they were mentionning that in the Peace Mission 2005, China would not let the Russians see the cockpits of their Su-30s. Now, unless China modified the cockpits, there really doesn't seem to be any other reasons for them to do this. So yeah, I suspect the same thing on some J-11s.

duskylim said:

Dear Crobato:

If as you say, China is continuing production of the Su-27/J-11's by ordering parts directly from Russian suppliers, does it mean that the program to produce the aircraft indigenously failed, or is it that the other aircraft you mentioned - the J-11A? or J11B is the one slated for indigenous production?

As to specifics, what became of China's plans to make the following:

1) the engine
2) the radar
3) the avionics

Thanks in advance

Dusky Lim

Click to expand...

The engine is delayed but its design had already been technically and design wise certified for mass production. The problem is that they are unable to produce enough at the quantity levels required. The engine already has been certified for mass production as of February 2006. However the AL-31F engine orders were already made in mid 2005. At that point there was no guarantee that the WS-10A would have been certified and China may have lodged the engine order as both an insurance and the obvious fact they're going to need a large stock of reserve engines anyway for the Flankers already in service.

That should also answer Goll's question.

Let me add that China is also currently manufacturing a static variant of the WS-10A used for electric power generation. Considering China's electrical power supply problems due to rapid economic growth, that is also going to cut in to the production quotas because of the demand for such generators.

Just to give you a tmieline, the engine is said to have a problem that cause a strange noise and it was only around October of 2005 that the problem was found and fixed. By then the AL-31Fs had been ordered midyear of that year.

China has definite plans to make their own radar, and they have been much more successful in advancing in the radar field than on the engines. In 2003 and 2004, the Y-8 radar testbed had been photoed with an Su-27 like nose. The radar may already have been in an advance stage or deployed because the Y-8 testbed has long been testing another radar, this time a new surveillance radar for the naval Y-8s.

As for the avionics, we have seen in various defense expos that China is able to produce and exhibit items like various HUD, HMS, MFDs, various navigation equipment, RWR, and what looks a copy of the IRST used in the Su-27. I gather taht the Chinese have pretty much matched the Russians in all these fields as we can see the progress on the FC-1. The IRST is something I'm not sure of, however, it's a field probably that was neglected (No IRST on J-10, J-8F and FC-1) so I gather they would have to import on this particular item to fill the gap.

As for Goll's question, there is no confusion on whose engine orders goes to who. The Russian news articles in question had also specifically mentioned the J-10 in the news related to the J-10 and the Su-27 in news related to the Su-27. Let's add to the fact that UMPO not just Salyut, supplies a large part of the engines for the Flankers, while Salyut is the one exclusively making for the J-10.

tphuang said:

you know, they were mentionning that in the Peace Mission 2005, China would not let the Russians see the cockpits of their Su-30s. Now, unless China modified the cockpits, there really doesn't seem to be any other reasons for them to do this. So yeah, I suspect the same thing on some J-11s.

Click to expand...

I find that very odd. Considering that China would not have any Su-30's or J-11/Su-27 (Flankers)if it wasn't for Russia. China wouldn't have any Flankers at all unless Russia decided to sell them. How much different could the cockpit avionics components matter to the Russians? Russia certainly wouldn't care one way or the other. Or are you saying this because China's breeching some sort of agreement with Russia and don't want them to know? This is puzzling?

Sea Dog said:

I find that very odd. Considering that China would not have any Su-30's or J-11/Su-27 (Flankers)if it wasn't for Russia. China wouldn't have any Flankers at all unless Russia decided to sell them. How much different could the cockpit avionics components matter to the Russians? Russia certainly wouldn't care one way or the other. Or are you saying this because China's breeching some sort of agreement with Russia and don't want them to know? This is puzzling?

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Yeah there were agreements I believe. Russia does not want anyone to modify or analyze the planes they sell because they're copyrighted. Clients are only allowed to use the fighters for what they're designed for (flying and killing people) and parts are provided by Russia if the client need to maintain them or to build them from kits (like J-11) but you're not allowed to do anything more with them. It's like any electronic device you buy from any company, you're allowed only to use it but it's illegal to open it and steal technology or to tweak it. Maybe China quietly went ahead and analyzed/modified the fighters anyway, I wouldn't be surprised if they did.

As for Goll's question, there is no confusion on whose engine orders goes to who. The Russian news articles in question had also specifically mentioned the J-10 in the news related to the J-10 and the Su-27 in news related to the Su-27. Let's add to the fact that UMPO not just Salyut, supplies a large part of the engines for the Flankers, while Salyut is the one exclusively making for the J-10.

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Thanks

Sea Dog said:

I find that very odd. Considering that China would not have any Su-30's or J-11/Su-27 (Flankers)if it wasn't for Russia. China wouldn't have any Flankers at all unless Russia decided to sell them. How much different could the cockpit avionics components matter to the Russians? Russia certainly wouldn't care one way or the other. Or are you saying this because China's breeching some sort of agreement with Russia and don't want them to know? This is puzzling?

Click to expand...

They would if the Chinese made modifications on the planes. It does appear and highly suspected they have done such on the Su-30s and the Su-27s.

I like to elaborate on the engine issue on the Russians. The AL-31F is designed collaborately by two bureaus, Salyut and Saturn-Lyulka. Apparently there is a schism between the two. China has a foot on both camps, though for some reason, India is only working with Lyulka and its UMPO associate to supply AL-31FPs for the MKIs. Salyut however, has the exclusive on the FM-1 modifications that enable the engine to produce up to 13,200kg of maximum thrust over the standard 12,500kg. These modifications are passed on to the AL-31FN which is also Salyut's baby. Salyut's TVC AL-31FNM-1 uses a different nozzle design (this one from Klimov used on the MiG-29OVT) and this was apparently sold for the J-10s. As such, there is no FPM-1 engine or a version of the AL-31FP for the MKIs with the 13,200kg thrust using Salyut's upgrades. In the long term, the Saturn and the Salyut side of the AL-31F family will end up branching out differently.

Dear Crob:

Thanks for the info, much appreciated. We've had a lot of news about progress on the engines but its difficult to confirm most of what we hear. So they intend to create a static (and perhaps marine) version of the WS-10A?

There certainly will be a market but that will most likely delay the production of the fighter model. At least experience gained with the power plant will add to service life.

In the case of display avionics, the latest pics of the FC-1 and the JH-7's interiors pretty much settled the issue of China's progress. It is in the area of sensors like IRST and radar where definitive data is hard to come by.

Yes it does seem from the number of ELINT and AWACS platforms being tested (and fielded?) that progress in the radar and EW areas is at least substantial.

We seem to be in one of those interim periods where Chinese military news is slow. Can't wait for it to pass and for the fun to begin...

Best Regards,

Dusky Lim

They already made a power station version of the engine and there is a commercial brochure on it too.

I don't really think they're in that of a hurry to do the WS-10A since Salyut appears to have given China enough support and incentive to continue with the AL-31F series for a while. Salyut has momentum behind it. Keeping the price low, the service good and proposing upgrades, Salyut is very serious in keeping the Chinese market to itself as long as possible. The bottomline is getting the fighters off the line regardless whether a Chinese or Russian engine is behind it.

In a way I think the WS-10A has already made its contribution if it forces Salyut to clean its act and act competitive.