What were some significant military advancements in medieval and ancient China?

rhino123 said:

Don't think it make too big an impact in Chinese ancient warfare. But the Chinese did created something pretty interesting at that era.

Multi-stage rockets - 火龍出水 (Fire Dragon out of the Water).

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[video=youtube;nrdbYD8Acdg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nrdbYD8Acdg [/video] (go to 1.52 minute)

Actually if the Chinese continued to do research and development of these type of weapons and make used of them in vast numbers, we might be seeing game changers in those time.

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It's a rockte with firecracker driven arrows that are lit by a slow burning match. A most sophisticated structure that endangers the user and has only limited effect on an enemy.

It's a widespread myth that ancient China was at the forefront of applying black powder.
"Chinese snow" was freely exported to the Muslim lands during the crusades because the Chinese did lack military applications for this material. They were on the forefront of the medical application of sulfur and saltpeter. Check for a primary source on the topic. Military applications for black powder were developed in the fortification intense wars between equals in Western Eurasia and North Africa. These developments were exported in part to China during the Mongol-Song clashes.

Kurt said:

It's a rockte with firecracker driven arrows that are lit by a slow burning match. A most sophisticated structure that endangers the user and has only limited effect on an enemy.

It's a widespread myth that ancient China was at the forefront of applying black powder.
"Chinese snow" was freely exported to the Muslim lands during the crusades because the Chinese did lack military applications for this material. They were on the forefront of the medical application of sulfur and saltpeter. Check

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for a primary source on the topic. Military applications for black powder were developed in the fortification intense wars between equals in Western Eurasia and North Africa. These developments were exported in part to China during the Mongol-Song clashes.

Click to expand...

Actually, it is a widespread myth, even in China, that the Chinese only used blackpowder for entertainment and medicine. The truth couldn't be more different.

The earliest application of gunpowder formula in China was in the form of a incendiary, and they found application as the "fuse" on the double piston flame thrower used for naval warfare, and played an important part in Song's conquest of the Southern Tang Dynasty. The formula was refined during the mid-11th century and the Military Treatise Wujingzongyao recorded the first "explosive" variant of black powder. Gunpowder found widespread use in bombs hurled by traction trebuchet and triple bow siegecrossbows, as well as incendiary munition fired by conventional composite bows and crossbows. During the battle of Caishiji, the Song military utilized gunpowder bombs that gave them a definitive edge against the Jurchen invaders.

The next evolution of gunpowder in China came in the form of fire lances and primitive rocketry, or fire arrows, that utilized gunpowder as a propellant. Bamboo tubing were initially used for that purpose, but they were replaced by metal (bronze) during the late 13th century. As a matter of fact, the first definitively dated example of firearms in recorded history is a Yuan Dynasty firearm dated from the mid 1330s, and there are several examples from the late 13th century that couldn't be definitively dated due to a lack of inscription. By early Ming Dynasty, the usage of firearms became so wide-spread that one in every ten Ming soldiers fielded handgonne.

Here some documentaries History Channel did on ancient Chinese military advancements and technology.

[video=youtube;9xfDGm4mGU4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9xfDGm4mGU4&list=PLOL2t8YQ77641_4D9C-Ud_PcKfTQ0bMov&index=13[/video]

[video=youtube;jQFRO5iOwLU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQFRO5iOwLU&list=PLOL2t8YQ77641_4D9C-Ud_PcKfTQ0bMov&index=15[/video]

A book known as the Huolongjing () actually had some pretty detailed description of the various firearms in ancient China. I am wondering if this book was translated and mass printed. If there is... I am pretty sure of getting one.

siegecrossbow said:

Actually, it is a widespread myth, even in China, that the Chinese only used blackpowder for entertainment and medicine. The truth couldn't be more different.

The earliest application of gunpowder formula in China was in the form of a incendiary, and they found application as the "fuse" on the double piston flame thrower used for naval warfare, and played an important part in Song's conquest of the Southern Tang Dynasty. The formula was refined during the mid-11th century and the Military Treatise Wujingzongyao recorded the first "explosive" variant of black powder. Gunpowder found widespread use in bombs hurled by traction trebuchet and triple bow siegecrossbows, as well as incendiary munition fired by conventional composite bows and crossbows. During the battle of Caishiji, the Song military utilized gunpowder bombs that gave them a definitive edge against the Jurchen invaders.

The next evolution of gunpowder in China came in the form of fire lances and primitive rocketry, or fire arrows, that utilized gunpowder as a propellant. Bamboo tubing were initially used for that purpose, but they were replaced by metal (bronze) during the late 13th century. As a matter of fact, the first definitively dated example of firearms in recorded history is a Yuan Dynasty firearm dated from the mid 1330s, and there are several examples from the late 13th century that couldn't be definitively dated due to a lack of inscription. By early Ming Dynasty, the usage of firearms became so wide-spread that one in every ten Ming soldiers fielded handgonne.

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I remember seeing an article in a magazine called Technology and Culture about 40 years ago that contained the picture of a wall in a temple from 1198 that showed a cannon and its departing ball of the same shape as on the first European gun picture from 1325. So the gun must have been developed in China or between China and Europe and than transmitted to China before 1198.

delft said:

I remember seeing an article in a magazine called Technology and Culture about 40 years ago that contained the picture of a wall in a temple from 1198 that showed a cannon and its departing ball of the same shape as on the first European gun picture from 1325. So the gun must have been developed in China or between China and Europe and than transmitted to China before 1198.

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This one?





from here:

no_name said:

This one?

from here:

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No, it was a b/w photograph of bas relief without colors that showed a cannon similar to the 1326 pictures your link shows, not a hand held gun. They look as if they are cast in bronze. I understand that hand held guns followed later.

siegecrossbow said:

Actually, it is a widespread myth, even in China, that the Chinese only used blackpowder for entertainment and medicine. The truth couldn't be more different.

The earliest application of gunpowder formula in China was in the form of a incendiary, and they found application as the "fuse" on the double piston flame thrower used for naval warfare, and played an important part in Song's conquest of the Southern Tang Dynasty. The formula was refined during the mid-11th century and the Military Treatise Wujingzongyao recorded the first "explosive" variant of black powder. Gunpowder found widespread use in bombs hurled by traction trebuchet and triple bow siegecrossbows, as well as incendiary munition fired by conventional composite bows and crossbows. During the battle of Caishiji, the Song military utilized gunpowder bombs that gave them a definitive edge against the Jurchen invaders.

The next evolution of gunpowder in China came in the form of fire lances and primitive rocketry, or fire arrows, that utilized gunpowder as a propellant. Bamboo tubing were initially used for that purpose, but they were replaced by metal (bronze) during the late 13th century. As a matter of fact, the first definitively dated example of firearms in recorded history is a Yuan Dynasty firearm dated from the mid 1330s, and there are several examples from the late 13th century that couldn't be definitively dated due to a lack of inscription. By early Ming Dynasty, the usage of firearms became so wide-spread that one in every ten Ming soldiers fielded handgonne.

Click to expand...

You mix up several formulas. Poisonous smoke powder, liquid fuel with added salts, explosive black powder and gunpowder for guns.
Adding salts to burning substances is old alchemy and based on the believe that the salts improve the flame. That is part of liquid fuel for burning in naval warfare and poisonous smoke powder. Explosive black powder uses lots of sulfur and is likely the earliest and most expensive development due to its medical application. Gunpowder for guns burns slightly slower and has more specially prepared charcoal. It's the last on the list of applications.
Narrowing the discussion on China and Europe is a bad approach, because Europe is strongly connected with the Muslim world, sharing recipes. The Muslim world is also the connector to India and China for a flow of ideas. Muslim black powder application had cannons in the Maghreb, while the Mashriq rather had liquid bombs with saltpeter (also an explosive mixture).
So far the Chinese were on the forefront of explosive and poisonous use of black powder, but not in gunpowder formula development were they were late adaptors. Note that cannon were also constructed out of wood and then rather resembled petards in their effect.

ABC78 said:

Here some documentaries History Channel did on ancient Chinese military advancements and technology.

[video=youtube;9xfDGm4mGU4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9xfDGm4mGU4&list=PLOL2t8YQ77641_4D9C-Ud_PcKfTQ0bMov&index=13[/video]

[video=youtube;jQFRO5iOwLU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQFRO5iOwLU&list=PLOL2t8YQ77641_4D9C-Ud_PcKfTQ0bMov&index=15[/video]

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I couldn't find the link so I removed my comment.

Kurt said:

You mix up several formulas. Poisonous smoke powder, liquid fuel with added salts, explosive black powder and gunpowder for guns.
Adding salts to burning substances is old alchemy and based on the believe that the salts improve the flame. That is part of liquid fuel for burning in naval warfare and poisonous smoke powder. Explosive black powder uses lots of sulfur and is likely the earliest and most expensive development due to its medical application. Gunpowder for guns burns slightly slower and has more specially prepared charcoal. It's the last on the list of applications.
Narrowing the discussion on China and Europe is a bad approach, because Europe is strongly connected with the Muslim world, sharing recipes. The Muslim world is also the connector to India and China for a flow of ideas. Muslim black powder application had cannons in the Maghreb, while the Mashriq rather had liquid bombs with saltpeter (also an explosive mixture).
So far the Chinese were on the forefront of explosive and poisonous use of black powder, but not in gunpowder formula development were they were late adaptors. Note that cannon were also constructed out of wood and then rather resembled petards in their effect.

Click to expand...

Actually, they were made from bamboo, which were hollow to begin with. In Northern China presided over by the Jin Dynasty, where bamboo wasn't easily available, they used something similar to rolled up butcher paper for the hollow tube in which the gunpowder and projectiles were placed.

There is no doubt that China was at the forefront of using gunpowder as a propellant, since we have archaeological and historical documentation back up. Disregarding controversial evidence such as the Buddhist painting of a fire lance wielding demon and the stone bas relief of a cannon wielding soldier, we have documentation support of rocket propelled arrows and a true gun, as recorded by Song Shi (history of Song compiled by Yuan scholars) dating to the mid-13th century. In fact, we can trace the lineage of the development through the evolution of indigenous Chinese firearms. Fir fire lances were primarily single shot flame throwers that had the added bonus of spewing metal and porcelain shards. As the formula improved, however, we began to see fire lances that primarily shoot projectiles, like the ones improvised by the defending general Chen Gui. To me, there is a clear evolutionary progression between the first firelance and handgonnes fashioned from metal (some of the early bronze firearms even had rings similar to those of a bamboo that are placed to prevent the barrels from bursting). On the otherhand, 13th century English scholar Roger Bacon, who was a huge advocate of gunpowders weapons, only foresaw their use as bombs, not as guns. To me, this is an indication that the idea for constructing firearms traveled from East to West, instead of the other way around.