I was not comparing the paper cartridges with what came later, but with what was used earlier, in tactics the large squares of musketeers each protected against cavalry by a pair of squares of pike men of the late 16th and the 17th century with the thin red line of musketeers of the late 18th century (Napoleonic wars ) till the American Civil War. This was made possible by the development of the paper cartridge and the bayonet.
What were some significant military advancements in medieval and ancient China?
- Thread starter solarz
- Start date
The most significant Chinese military advancement in medieval China, in terms of impact on world history, is probably not a single piece of equipment or technology, but the body of military skill and expertise in seigecraft. It was Chinese seigecraft that allowed the Mongols to roll over central, south and western Asia. Without Chinese seige engineers the Mongols could not have easily rolled up the urbanized civilizations of Euroasian heartlands, and probably would have been stopped well short of reaching Europe and Near East.
The importance of the 200 years of "Mongol peace" stretching from China to borders of Turkey, made possible by Chinese seige craft, to the subsequent development of European, Near East, Middle East and South Asian civilizations can't be overestimated. No Chinese seige craft, no Mongol Peace, no Marco Polo, much less European inclination to explore westwards to reach fabled wealth of "Cathay" and India, Discovery of America would probably be delayed by centuries. The great European atlantic cultures that gave rise to capitalism would remain backwaters. Italy and Turkish empire would remain the commerical heartlands of western world. The world of 18th and 19th century when the foundations of modernity is laid would instead probably look much more like the world of the 15th century.
The importance of the 200 years of "Mongol peace" stretching from China to borders of Turkey, made possible by Chinese seige craft, to the subsequent development of European, Near East, Middle East and South Asian civilizations can't be overestimated. No Chinese seige craft, no Mongol Peace, no Marco Polo, much less European inclination to explore westwards to reach fabled wealth of "Cathay" and India, Discovery of America would probably be delayed by centuries. The great European atlantic cultures that gave rise to capitalism would remain backwaters. Italy and Turkish empire would remain the commerical heartlands of western world. The world of 18th and 19th century when the foundations of modernity is laid would instead probably look much more like the world of the 15th century.
@ chuck731
I'm not at all sure that you're right in all respects. I suspicion that the first voyage by C. Colon was inspired by stories by European sailors who had accidentally reached the other side of the Atlantic and managed to return and perhaps even by stories about the Greenland Vikings going to New Foundland centuries earlier. But there can be no doubt that the Mongol peace was important for extending European civilization, largely derives from the Muslims, with the printing press, gun powder weapons and many other things.
I'm not at all sure that you're right in all respects. I suspicion that the first voyage by C. Colon was inspired by stories by European sailors who had accidentally reached the other side of the Atlantic and managed to return and perhaps even by stories about the Greenland Vikings going to New Foundland centuries earlier. But there can be no doubt that the Mongol peace was important for extending European civilization, largely derives from the Muslims, with the printing press, gun powder weapons and many other things.
There is no verifiable account any any european having reached any part of the Americas between Leif erikkson and christopher columbus. While finding a direct route to the soources of spices that western europeans had hitherto had to buy at exorbitant cost from middlemen in the mediterranean and the muslim east was a major consideration for the portugese, There is no doubt the spanish, who subsidized Christopher Columbus, was motivating in a large part by a desire to establish contact with what the Europeans in 1490s still believed to be the mongol khanate centered at Daidu (Beijing), as Marco Polo had known it almost 200 years before. The stories of Marco polo played a great part in European perception of vast wealth and power of the lands of cathay (china) and zepanguo (Japan), as well as ay eurpean notion of just where cathay and zepanguo was on the globe. For 20-30 years after Columbus had rediscovered America, the Spanish weren't certain whether America was connected to the lands of the great khan of Cathay, and was fearful that story of European depredations in central America may reach the ears of the great khan, and the khan would send a force to come and drive them out.
I know but Columbus's ships were only just sufficient for the journey to America and quite inadequate to sail all the way to China if America hadn't been in the way. Did he try to sail on to China after he hit the West Indies? No, he returned and claimed to have reached China and of course with tales of gold. But even if he assumed that Asia was twice as big as it is he could not have thought that he had reached it. There was not, had not been for more than a thousand years, any secret about the size of the Earth.
While the correct diameter of the earth was known to the ancient Greek and passed down the ages in scholarly circles, the perception of that knowledge had changed through the middle ages from "that is a fact that can be easily demonstrated" to "so and so said earth is this big but he may be wrong". In late 1400s the size of the earth has again become a subject for debate.
Columbus did his own calculations of how big the earth was and he arrived at an erroneous conclusion that the earth 1/4 smaller than it actually was. He then made some more erroneous calculations bases on the accounts of Marco Polo and concluded Daidu (Beijing) was much further to the east of constantinople than it actually was. In effect he put Daidu (beijing) at roughly the longitude of Hawaii, while making the earth 1/4 smaller around. This is how he managed to believe china or India should be approximately the same distance from the Azores as the islands of Carribean actually are.
There is no doubt he thought he arrived off the coast of Asia when he made landfall in Hispaniola.
People have written books speculating about how columbus suspected, or even knew of America, and how his miscalculations of the distance westwards to Asia was an intentional ruse to get the queen of Spain to sponsor his trip to America. But there is no verifiable evidence that he could have either known about, or suspected the existence of, America, before the 1493 voyage, nor indeed during the remainder of his life. He appeared to have died believing what he had discovered was, if not Asia proper, at least an outlying island chain not far from shores of Asia. In any case, if his miscalculation was indeed an necessary ruse to get his trip sponsored, then clearly even if columbus was looking for america, his patron only allowed it because she thought he was looking for china. So it remains that knowledge of china brought by marco polo during the Mongol peace was instrumental to discovery of America.
Columbus did his own calculations of how big the earth was and he arrived at an erroneous conclusion that the earth 1/4 smaller than it actually was. He then made some more erroneous calculations bases on the accounts of Marco Polo and concluded Daidu (Beijing) was much further to the east of constantinople than it actually was. In effect he put Daidu (beijing) at roughly the longitude of Hawaii, while making the earth 1/4 smaller around. This is how he managed to believe china or India should be approximately the same distance from the Azores as the islands of Carribean actually are.
There is no doubt he thought he arrived off the coast of Asia when he made landfall in Hispaniola.
People have written books speculating about how columbus suspected, or even knew of America, and how his miscalculations of the distance westwards to Asia was an intentional ruse to get the queen of Spain to sponsor his trip to America. But there is no verifiable evidence that he could have either known about, or suspected the existence of, America, before the 1493 voyage, nor indeed during the remainder of his life. He appeared to have died believing what he had discovered was, if not Asia proper, at least an outlying island chain not far from shores of Asia. In any case, if his miscalculation was indeed an necessary ruse to get his trip sponsored, then clearly even if columbus was looking for america, his patron only allowed it because she thought he was looking for china. So it remains that knowledge of china brought by marco polo during the Mongol peace was instrumental to discovery of America.
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Kurt
Junior Member
You overrate Chinese siegecraft. It did play an initial role in the Mongol expansion, but was soon replaced by Muslim engineers with more advanced technology. In Western Eurasia the mutual wars of powers with fortresses besieging other fortresses had developed the art to a higher degree.
In the wake of the stirrup Chinese siege technology had reached Western Eurasia and allowed the invaders to balance the Roman prowess in artillery with own systems during the Migration period and Early Middle Ages (Sui-dynasty and Early Tang dynasty).
The discussion declines into a comparison between China and Europe, totally neglecting Muslim contributions that often played a more important role for ancient China.
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From 1206, when Mongols first attacked northern China, to 1250, when the mongols sacked Baghdad, the siege expertise were provided mainly by norther Chinese engineers. By 1250, Mongol empire had already reached 80% of maximum size. So it is accurate to say Chinese siegecraft facilitated the back bone of Mongol Empire.
It was only after 1250, when further Mongol expansion into Muslim Syria ran into difficulties, and Mongols were decisively defeated by Islamic forces in the battle of Aint Jilut, that Mongols began to heavily integrate influences from Syrian and Iraqi califates, and Mongol expansion turned back east to deal with southern Song Dynasty in China with Muslim conscripts.
It was only after 1250, when further Mongol expansion into Muslim Syria ran into difficulties, and Mongols were decisively defeated by Islamic forces in the battle of Aint Jilut, that Mongols began to heavily integrate influences from Syrian and Iraqi califates, and Mongol expansion turned back east to deal with southern Song Dynasty in China with Muslim conscripts.
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