H-20 bomber (with H-X, JH-XX)

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tamsen_ikard

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Building a flying wing with these weapons bay dimensions is not feasible. The wings would need a great deal of stiffness, which means more weight for reinforcement and less fuel. I think we're looking at a planform with a higher aspect ratio, something like the dart Rick proposed. That has the added benefit of enabling supersonic flight while being compatible with ELO.
I think having both JL-1 sized IWB and supersonic flight is too much. It has to be one or the other.

The kind of dark sword like shape will probably be less efficient while flying and also supersonic flight may require lower bypass engine which will also lead to higher fuel consumption. Overall, supersonic flight is also very useful in terms of survivability, but will probably lead to much lower range.

So, it really depends on what PLA considers the most important in terms of trade-offs. If being able to strike CONUS with JL-1 like missile is the requirement, then I think they will go for a big flying wing design that has the necessary range, dimension and payload capacity to both fly closer to CONUS and launch a JL-1 like missile.

I think a plane that can get close to CONUS and launch a JL-1 like missile with 8000 KM range has enoromous benefits. JL-1 can also be used with conventional warheads to strike US industrial base and important military bases in CONUS. This will be a big equalizer in US-China competion since US can currently strike mainland China but China doesn't have an equal option to strike CONUS.

Compare to the strategic benefit of this kind of long range bomber, a supersonic bomber may have less benefit since it will have much lower range and probably can only hit something like Hawaii.

As far as material stiffness is concerned, I think China already has advanced composite materials with light-weight but stiff constitution. So, that is not likely a limiting factor.
 

mack8

Junior Member
The point of ALBM is:
(1)significantly extend range,
(2)delegate penetration to missile at the same time, as H-6 isn't survivable and can be tracked by anything which has LOS of it, from afar. Even at low altitude over sea.

This isn't mission that requires a deep stealth bomber. It requires "just" passing by Japan southern island chain(or north of home islands, or over empty eastern Russia), preferably at low altitude (to make coastal radars irrelevant). For that we need reconnaissance, strikes at key fixed radars(tower mounted ones), and medium range fighter escort in and out; even H-6 can do this well enough. After we pass Japan, interceptors aren't effective anymore(they don't have neither speed nor fuel to catch transsonic bomber in a rear chase), ALBM itself can be launched from a huge arc away from CONUS, spanning good ~10k km. This is beyond any effective fighter patrol.

Whole mission profile is perfectly viable with current force structure.
Starting in early 2030s, add in J-36s, which can do roaming interceptions beyond japanese islands, and add taste to interceptors' life.

Then we come to new aircraft.
What is VLO flying wing (i.e. all aspect, broadband stealth VLO)?
1, aircraft that can expect that it can't be tracked over long distances by means of airspace observation. That includes lower frequency radars.
2, aircraft that can normally expect to be aware of normal means of airspace observation long before those will be able to spot it by itself.
3, very efficient aircraft. We often forget, that before stealth, flying wing is just damn efficient at flying...provided you don't want long deep bays (see where it goes?).
4, through those 3 advantages, VLO bomber can employ smaller, shorter range effectors together with onboard means of reconnaissance, targeting and post strike evaluation, wastly increasing value of each succesful flight.

TLDR: this is penetration aircraft, built specifically - for a lot of investment - to operate over States. Which is reasonable, b/c for all their forward-deployed toughness, contintental US are suprisingly soft. There's ironically some merit in B-2 like sacrifice towards low altitude flight, because it just makes things easier near island chains. But if you're sure you're to remain stealth enough over the spawn of design life - no need really.

If you want "just" a better ALBM carrier - you aim for what Blitzo brought in many pages ago. I.e. this thing:
LAP-render-top-860x763.jpg


It will pass by Japanese island chain (especially since its it's stealth is mostly directed upwards!), and through very shape of the aircraft it's going to be massively easier to fit one long bay. Range requirement is greately reduced just because we rely on stand off. But again, that's just one launch attempt of light warhead per sortie, without even pen aids. No combat search, no strike evaluation, just 1-2 launches "somewhere", crew has no idea where even.
We keep looking at all aspects and possibilities while we chew our fingers waiting for the real thing, so if they might be looking at a penetrator we can still expect possibly something like this (i know there is a translated version somewhere but can't find it at the moment)?

1758047757758.jpeg
 

SunlitZelkova

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Registered Member
The point of ALBM is:
(1)significantly extend range,
(2)delegate penetration to missile at the same time, as H-6 isn't survivable and can be tracked by anything which has LOS of it, from afar. Even at low altitude over sea.

This isn't mission that requires a deep stealth bomber. It requires "just" passing by Japan southern island chain(or north of home islands, or over empty eastern Russia), preferably at low altitude (to make coastal radars irrelevant). For that we need reconnaissance, strikes at key fixed radars(tower mounted ones), and medium range fighter escort in and out; even H-6 can do this well enough. After we pass Japan, interceptors aren't effective anymore(they don't have neither speed nor fuel to catch transsonic bomber in a rear chase), ALBM itself can be launched from a huge arc away from CONUS, spanning good ~10k km. This is beyond any effective fighter patrol.

Whole mission profile is perfectly viable with current force structure.
Starting in early 2030s, add in J-36s, which can do roaming interceptions beyond japanese islands, and add taste to interceptors' life.

Yes, for conventional strikes. But if the ALBMs are intended to have a nuclear role, a situation may arise in which there isn't time to launch a massive aerial campaign to destroy air defenses in Japan. Stealth would help the bomber get through in that situation.

Eastern Russia isn't empty, and the bulk of the VKS' fighter strength is strung along the border with China. It would be great if Russia would allow overflights, but it isn't a good idea to depend on that, especially with a nuclear strike system.

TLDR: this is penetration aircraft, built specifically - for a lot of investment - to operate over States. Which is reasonable, b/c for all their forward-deployed toughness, contintental US are suprisingly soft. There's ironically some merit in B-2 like sacrifice towards low altitude flight, because it just makes things easier near island chains. But if you're sure you're to remain stealth enough over the spawn of design life - no need really.

With advancements in ballistic missile accuracy, this seems questionable. Have there been any actual indications the H-20 might be intended to operate *in* North American airspace? In this day and age, what advantage would there be to dropping bombs from directly over targets, as opposed to hitting them with ballistic or cruise missiles?

Whether making the H-20 an ALBM carrier makes sense or not, using it for non-stand off strikes would make even less sense.

I'm just asking if there is any source out there supporting that idea. I'm not trying to get too speculative.
 

Blitzo

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Building a flying wing with these weapons bay dimensions is not feasible. The wings would need a great deal of stiffness, which means more weight for reinforcement and less fuel. I think we're looking at a planform with a higher aspect ratio, something like the dart Rick proposed. That has the added benefit of enabling supersonic flight while being compatible with ELO.

To clarify, the dart/arrow configuration I suggested before would not aim to be supersonic capable (a supersonic capable aircraft of such size, and being stealthy, seems a tad too ambitious)
 

ACuriousPLAFan

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Registered Member
Building a flying wing with these weapons bay dimensions is not feasible. The wings would need a great deal of stiffness, which means more weight for reinforcement and less fuel. I think we're looking at a planform with a higher aspect ratio, something like the dart Rick proposed. That has the added benefit of enabling supersonic flight while being compatible with ELO.
To clarify, the dart/arrow configuration I suggested before would not aim to be supersonic capable (a supersonic capable aircraft of such size, and being stealthy, seems a tad too ambitious)

To be honest, I'm always thinking of those new hangar-bunkers at Neixiang. ~59 meters of max wingspan (accounting for wall clearance) is just too much for one H-6, but not enough for two H-6s parked in parallel, even with wingtips touching. And since the airbase does not host any other aircraft of similar sizes to the H-6 or larger, this means that those hangar-bunkers are most likely meant for the H-20.

However, if a dart/diamond/arrow-shaped H-20 is indeed true, wouldn't either one of these be the case?
- A very wide/fat dart/diamond/arrow design (i.e. wingspan of 50+ meters) with a high aspect ratio; or
- A very narrow/slim dart/diamond/arrow design (i.e. wingspan of no more than 27-28 meters, considering wall and wingtip clearance) with a low aspect ratio.

In fact, the latter configuration is closer to what @Blitzo has previously envisioned, although certainly not going to be a high aspect ratio design. Unless, of course, the aircraft is in the former configuration, but with the length that is either roughly in the similar ballpark as its wingspan of 50+ meters, or slightly/somewhat longer. However, this particular design would also result in a very massive (and also a very heavy) H-20.
 
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tamsen_ikard

Senior Member
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To clarify, the dart/arrow configuration I suggested before would not aim to be supersonic capable (a supersonic capable aircraft of such size, and being stealthy, seems a tad too ambitious)
In my opinion, PLA will not choose a particular Bomber shape just to fit a certain missile, In this case, the JL-1. The shape of the plane will be determined by what benefits that shape brings in terms of aerodynamic efficiency, fuel capacity, speed so forth. Each shape will have its own pros and cons when it comes to range and optimum operating speed.

I'm not an aerospace expert, but my surface level knowledge tells me that an arrow shape is more suitable for high-supersonic flight with lower wing efficiency. Kinda like what Dark sword is designed for. A plane operating very fast in a very high, near space altitude.

So, if PLA goes for an arrow-like design, it has to be a supersonic Bomber with atleast Mach 2 supercruise ability.

A supersonic bomber like that will have its own trade-offs, like perhaps low-bypass engines, which again has much lower fuel efficiency and thus probably much lower range.

So, I don't think such a plane fits with what Yankee and others were saying, which is the ability to carry JL-1, which presumably will be able to hit CONUS. That kind of goal is pointing towards a more B-2/B-21 like shape with low speed, hi-bypass engine and likely enough range to come close to CONUS without going through Russian airspace.
 

Gloire_bb

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Yes, for conventional strikes. But if the ALBMs are intended to have a nuclear role, a situation may arise in which there isn't time to launch a massive aerial campaign to destroy air defenses in Japan. Stealth would help the bomber get through in that situation.

Eastern Russia isn't empty, and the bulk of the VKS' fighter strength is strung along the border with China. It would be great if Russia would allow overflights, but it isn't a good idea to depend on that, especially with a nuclear strike system.
You do it together. Stealth doesn't work that well in fighter-augmented IADS without support anyway. I.e. for just that mission, low altitude + support is quite desirable.

Also, number of fighter rgts in eastern Russia is minimal (single digit of them; I don't think Russian forces in Eastern MD can even take on Japan w/o significant reinforcements from the west), and unless Russia will go full blue 8-nations alliance style, stripping western frontier, i don't think it will change. China is guarding Russia's rear as much as Russia is guarding China's now. It's a very clear mutual benefit.

With advancements in ballistic missile accuracy, this seems questionable. Have there been any actual indications the H-20 might be intended to operate *in* North American airspace? In this day and age, what advantage would there be to dropping bombs from directly over targets, as opposed to hitting them with ballistic or cruise missiles?
Gravity bomb(even with kit/wings) is basically all warhead. Everything is effective weight, i.e. transport advantage is significant.
As soon as you start adding "true" rocket engine, you add relatively high tech parasite weight, that isn't that warhead.
For example, one JL-1 ALBM may equal couple dozen B-61s, while delivering just one.
If stealth bomber is more survivable than single ALBM(which isn't exactly a big if, esp. since USA has continental mid-course ABM) - it makes sense to carry more.

Second advantage is sensors - manned aircraft within LOS is by default a strike/reconnaissance system, that can observe space around it, make targeting decisions(even against moving targets), choose suitable weapons(no need to evaporate everything, when just SDB/a2a can produce desired effect) and evaluate results - everything immediately.

Stand off carriers are effectively delivery platforms only - they're blind, their targeting decisions aren't even theirs. At best they're as fresh as your weapons' ToT/last OtA(space) update.
But since we're talking nuclear war, and space(or even command facilities) can be gone completely - this delay starts growing, at worst becoming map targeting outright. Which is obviously not ideal and completely lacks feedback (like, how you even know w/o recon feed, where you weapons worked, where they didn't.)
Furthermore, there's a weapon choice.

I'd suggest JL-1 is the best choice for H-6N, all things considered. Why?
It isn't an intercontinental bomber by default, and its bomb bay is small(or even filled with additional fuel). External weapons are a careful consideration of drag coefficient v pen chance, which is a very tough equation for a small heavy bomber.
If not because of H-6 platform, i personally think China would've went for very long range LO cruise missiles, like Russia. They just make it further using much less volume and weight. For example, on a same mission H-6N will prosecute with 1 JL-1, Tu-95 (through sheer range advantage) will launch 4 or maybe even 8 weapons, and Tu-160(where everything is internal) - 12. Yes, with individually worse chances of getting to the targets. But it's 12.
And with mix of tactical missiles and gravity bombs, CW bombers could rival boomers in their destructive might. Severa, dozens of warheads per bomber are totally doable.
 
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Blitzo

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In my opinion, PLA will not choose a particular Bomber shape just to fit a certain missile, In this case, the JL-1. The shape of the plane will be determined by what benefits that shape brings in terms of aerodynamic efficiency, fuel capacity, speed so forth. Each shape will have its own pros and cons when it comes to range and optimum operating speed.

I was also doubtful as to the idea of the PLA seeking to develop a specific shape for a bomber around a specific payload class, but it seems the rumours are saying that they want their new bomber to be able to carry "long" unitary payloads, so that is out of our hands.

Our job now is to try and rationalize how such an aircraft may look like in context of other likely PLA requirements for such an aircraft.


I'm not an aerospace expert, but my surface level knowledge tells me that an arrow shape is more suitable for high-supersonic flight with lower wing efficiency. Kinda like what Dark sword is designed for. A plane operating very fast in a very high, near space altitude.

So, if PLA goes for an arrow-like design, it has to be a supersonic Bomber with atleast Mach 2 supercruise ability.

A supersonic bomber like that will have its own trade-offs, like perhaps low-bypass engines, which again has much lower fuel efficiency and thus probably much lower range.

So, I don't think such a plane fits with what Yankee and others were saying, which is the ability to carry JL-1, which presumably will be able to hit CONUS. That kind of goal is pointing towards a more B-2/B-21 like shape with low speed, hi-bypass engine and likely enough range to come close to CONUS without going through Russian airspace.

That isn't necessarily true. A low aspect ratio/arrow shaped aircraft does not have to be high supersonic -- it very well may be high subsonic instead.

If you want a stealthy, high supersonic, near space aircraft then you are adding much more requirements to the aircraft and inevitably making it much more complex and expensive.

Just because an aircraft is a low aspect ratio, arrowhead shaped aircraft doesn't mean it needs to be supersonic capable.

I refer to my post #4581, where among other things the previous US concept for the low altitude penetrator (alternative to B-2 back in the day) is a similar low aspect ratio, large, high subsonic (NOT supersonic) aircraft. The only difference is that concept at the time was oriented for low altitude performance; the idea we are talking about of course would be high altitude and oriented around a longer weapons bay rather than a wide weapons bay.


===

To be honest, I'm always thinking of those new hangar-bunkers at Neixiang. ~59 meters of max wingspan (accounting for wall clearance) is just too much for one H-6, but not enough for two H-6s parked in parallel, even with wingtips touching. And since the airbase does not host any other aircraft of similar sizes to the H-6 or larger, this means that those hangar-bunkers are most likely meant for the H-20.

However, if a dart/diamond/arrow-shaped H-20 is indeed true, wouldn't either one of these be the case?
- A very wide/fat dart/diamond/arrow design (i.e. wingspan of 50+ meters) with a high aspect ratio; or
- A very narrow/slim dart/diamond/arrow design (i.e. wingspan of no more than 27-28 meters, considering wall and wingtip clearance) with a low aspect ratio.

In fact, the latter configuration is closer to what @Blitzo has previously envisioned, although certainly not going to be a high aspect ratio design. Unless, of course, the aircraft is in the former configuration, but with the length that is either roughly in the similar ballpark as its wingspan of 50+ meters, or slightly/somewhat longer. However, this particular design would also result in a very massive (and also a very heavy) H-20.

I'm not sure how seriously to take the bunkers in terms of using them to size how big H-20 may be -- but if we were forced to interpret them in context of the idea of a future H-20 oriented around "long unitary weapons bays," the geometry I suggested in #4581 or #4601 could be viable, and a wingspan of 26-28m could enable two such aircraft to be parked alongside one another in a 59m width space if absolutely needed.


A 50m wingspan aircraft while also having the length to fit a long unitary weapon like JL-1 or thereabouts (or other large, long hypersonic weapons), as you said, would be very very heavy and I admit I'm a bit skeptical if the PLA would be that ambitious.
 
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