H-20 bomber (with H-X, JH-XX)

Gloire_bb

Major
Registered Member
There's no magic in designing big stealth bomber, the question is wisdom of doing it.
Tu-160 size is unnecessary outgrowth of specific anti-ship weapon(kh-45), which was cancelled before its first flight.
Specifying deep VLO bomber for intermediate range ALBM is frankly weird.
 
Last edited:

SunlitZelkova

New Member
Registered Member
There's no magic in designing big stealth bomber, the question is wisdom of doing it.
Tu-160 size is unnecessary outgrowth of specific anti-ship weapon, which was cancelled before its first flight.
Specifying deep VLO bomber for intermediate range ALBM is frankly weird.

The claim that ALBM development was spurred by the inability of the H-6 airframe to provide the same capability as the B-52 or Tu-95 is reasonable, I think. If the H-20 was developed as a B-2 counterpart, to strike CONUS it would need to cross through US allied air defense networks in the 2IC, or Russia. Over in the strategy threads I have seen some fan-made graphics showing H-20s or H-6s taking off from Russia, but resting the fate of an entire strategic capability on a foreign country does not sound like something China would do, no matter how friendly that country appears to be at the moment. In a worst case scenario Russia might be unfriendly some day.

Using ALBMs to avoid the densely defended northerly routes across the Pacific makes sense, given the PLA's penchant for self-suffiency. ALCMs just would not cut it; Tu-95s and Tu-160s still have to penetrate North American airspace to launch their missiles, it's not like they can hit CONUS from inside Russian territory. ALBMs also have better survivability, as while a barrage of cruise missiles could be intercepted by NORAD's various fighters, Golden Dome is just a pile of paper. ALBMs could get through literally unopposed (after being launched).
 

ZeEa5KPul

Colonel
Registered Member
Wait, so if one of the requirements for the H-20 is to be able to carry the JL-1, which is about 12.5 meters long, instead of just being able to carry missiles that are too large for the H-6K/Js to carry more than one and not strategic enough for the H-6N to carry one underneath its belly:

What-in-the-world kind of missiles are we dealing with here?

Speaking of which, and taking the width of those newer Neixiang bunkers measured on Google Earth into account and assuming that the length of a flying wing VLO warplane is very roughly to be 3 times that of the length of its IWBs (which do seem to hold true for the B-2, B-21 and even the J-36), I made two very simplified CAD illustrations on the possible configurations of the H-20 based on available information + Referencing the GJ-11/21's overall design:

Once again, please note that:
1. The rectangular boxes in the middle of each airframes represent 2x internal weapons bays (IWBs) (for the inner two) and 2x engine maintenance access hatches (for the outer two), respectively.
2. All the boxes are ~15 meters long x ~3 meters wide.

View attachment 160857

I do hope that these two illustrations could be of some help for discussion referencing purposes.
Building a flying wing with these weapons bay dimensions is not feasible. The wings would need a great deal of stiffness, which means more weight for reinforcement and less fuel. I think we're looking at a planform with a higher aspect ratio, something like the dart Rick proposed. That has the added benefit of enabling supersonic flight while being compatible with ELO.
 

bebops

Junior Member
Registered Member
you are talking about 300+ tons stealth behemoth.. i don't think this is realistic considering cost and technical challenges to build this monster.

I thought it was a fan art until this was revealed by the news media.

To be honest, they can send a bunch of modules (similar to space station) then connect it together like lego. Soon enough, a behemoth structure has formed.

US wants to take their war to space, so this is the best response from China.
 

Gloire_bb

Major
Registered Member
The claim that ALBM development was spurred by the inability of the H-6 airframe to provide the same capability as the B-52 or Tu-95 is reasonable, I think. If the H-20 was developed as a B-2 counterpart, to strike CONUS it would need to cross through US allied air defense networks in the 2IC, or Russia. Over in the strategy threads I have seen some fan-made graphics showing H-20s or H-6s taking off from Russia, but resting the fate of an entire strategic capability on a foreign country does not sound like something China would do, no matter how friendly that country appears to be at the moment. In a worst case scenario Russia might be unfriendly some day.

Using ALBMs to avoid the densely defended northerly routes across the Pacific makes sense, given the PLA's penchant for self-suffiency. ALCMs just would not cut it; Tu-95s and Tu-160s still have to penetrate North American airspace to launch their missiles, it's not like they can hit CONUS from inside Russian territory. ALBMs also have better survivability, as while a barrage of cruise missiles could be intercepted by NORAD's various fighters, Golden Dome is just a pile of paper. ALBMs could get through literally unopposed (after being launched).
The point of ALBM is:
(1)significantly extend range,
(2)delegate penetration to missile at the same time, as H-6 isn't survivable and can be tracked by anything which has LOS of it, from afar. Even at low altitude over sea.

This isn't mission that requires a deep stealth bomber. It requires "just" passing by Japan southern island chain(or north of home islands, or over empty eastern Russia), preferably at low altitude (to make coastal radars irrelevant). For that we need reconnaissance, strikes at key fixed radars(tower mounted ones), and medium range fighter escort in and out; even H-6 can do this well enough. After we pass Japan, interceptors aren't effective anymore(they don't have neither speed nor fuel to catch transsonic bomber in a rear chase), ALBM itself can be launched from a huge arc away from CONUS, spanning good ~10k km. This is beyond any effective fighter patrol.

Whole mission profile is perfectly viable with current force structure.
Starting in early 2030s, add in J-36s, which can do roaming interceptions beyond japanese islands, and add taste to interceptors' life.

Then we come to new aircraft.
What is VLO flying wing (i.e. all aspect, broadband stealth VLO)?
1, aircraft that can expect that it can't be tracked over long distances by means of airspace observation. That includes lower frequency radars.
2, aircraft that can normally expect to be aware of normal means of airspace observation long before those will be able to spot it by itself.
3, very efficient aircraft. We often forget, that before stealth, flying wing is just damn efficient at flying...provided you don't want long deep bays (see where it goes?).
4, through those 3 advantages, VLO bomber can employ smaller, shorter range effectors together with onboard means of reconnaissance, targeting and post strike evaluation, wastly increasing value of each succesful flight.

TLDR: this is penetration aircraft, built specifically - for a lot of investment - to operate over States. Which is reasonable, b/c for all their forward-deployed toughness, contintental US are suprisingly soft. There's ironically some merit in B-2 like sacrifice towards low altitude flight, because it just makes things easier near island chains. But if you're sure you're to remain stealth enough over the spawn of design life - no need really.

If you want "just" a better ALBM carrier - you aim for what Blitzo brought in many pages ago. I.e. this thing:
LAP-render-top-860x763.jpg


It will pass by Japanese island chain (especially since its it's stealth is mostly directed upwards!), and through very shape of the aircraft it's going to be massively easier to fit one long bay. Range requirement is greately reduced just because we rely on stand off. But again, that's just one launch attempt of light warhead per sortie, without even pen aids. No combat search, no strike evaluation, just 1-2 launches "somewhere", crew has no idea where even.
 
Last edited:

tamsen_ikard

Senior Member
Registered Member
Building a flying wing with these weapons bay dimensions is not feasible. The wings would need a great deal of stiffness, which means more weight for reinforcement and less fuel. I think we're looking at a planform with a higher aspect ratio, something like the dart Rick proposed. That has the added benefit of enabling supersonic flight while being compatible with ELO.
I think having both JL-1 sized IWB and supersonic flight is too much. It has to be one or the other.

The kind of dark sword like shape will probably be less efficient while flying and also supersonic flight may require lower bypass engine which will also lead to higher fuel consumption. Overall, supersonic flight is also very useful in terms of survivability, but will probably lead to much lower range.

So, it really depends on what PLA considers the most important in terms of trade-offs. If being able to strike CONUS with JL-1 like missile is the requirement, then I think they will go for a big flying wing design that has the necessary range, dimension and payload capacity to both fly closer to CONUS and launch a JL-1 like missile.

I think a plane that can get close to CONUS and launch a JL-1 like missile with 8000 KM range has enoromous benefits. JL-1 can also be used with conventional warheads to strike US industrial base and important military bases in CONUS. This will be a big equalizer in US-China competion since US can currently strike mainland China but China doesn't have an equal option to strike CONUS.

Compare to the strategic benefit of this kind of long range bomber, a supersonic bomber may have less benefit since it will have much lower range and probably can only hit something like Hawaii.

As far as material stiffness is concerned, I think China already has advanced composite materials with light-weight but stiff constitution. So, that is not likely a limiting factor.
 

mack8

Junior Member
The point of ALBM is:
(1)significantly extend range,
(2)delegate penetration to missile at the same time, as H-6 isn't survivable and can be tracked by anything which has LOS of it, from afar. Even at low altitude over sea.

This isn't mission that requires a deep stealth bomber. It requires "just" passing by Japan southern island chain(or north of home islands, or over empty eastern Russia), preferably at low altitude (to make coastal radars irrelevant). For that we need reconnaissance, strikes at key fixed radars(tower mounted ones), and medium range fighter escort in and out; even H-6 can do this well enough. After we pass Japan, interceptors aren't effective anymore(they don't have neither speed nor fuel to catch transsonic bomber in a rear chase), ALBM itself can be launched from a huge arc away from CONUS, spanning good ~10k km. This is beyond any effective fighter patrol.

Whole mission profile is perfectly viable with current force structure.
Starting in early 2030s, add in J-36s, which can do roaming interceptions beyond japanese islands, and add taste to interceptors' life.

Then we come to new aircraft.
What is VLO flying wing (i.e. all aspect, broadband stealth VLO)?
1, aircraft that can expect that it can't be tracked over long distances by means of airspace observation. That includes lower frequency radars.
2, aircraft that can normally expect to be aware of normal means of airspace observation long before those will be able to spot it by itself.
3, very efficient aircraft. We often forget, that before stealth, flying wing is just damn efficient at flying...provided you don't want long deep bays (see where it goes?).
4, through those 3 advantages, VLO bomber can employ smaller, shorter range effectors together with onboard means of reconnaissance, targeting and post strike evaluation, wastly increasing value of each succesful flight.

TLDR: this is penetration aircraft, built specifically - for a lot of investment - to operate over States. Which is reasonable, b/c for all their forward-deployed toughness, contintental US are suprisingly soft. There's ironically some merit in B-2 like sacrifice towards low altitude flight, because it just makes things easier near island chains. But if you're sure you're to remain stealth enough over the spawn of design life - no need really.

If you want "just" a better ALBM carrier - you aim for what Blitzo brought in many pages ago. I.e. this thing:
LAP-render-top-860x763.jpg


It will pass by Japanese island chain (especially since its it's stealth is mostly directed upwards!), and through very shape of the aircraft it's going to be massively easier to fit one long bay. Range requirement is greately reduced just because we rely on stand off. But again, that's just one launch attempt of light warhead per sortie, without even pen aids. No combat search, no strike evaluation, just 1-2 launches "somewhere", crew has no idea where even.
We keep looking at all aspects and possibilities while we chew our fingers waiting for the real thing, so if they might be looking at a penetrator we can still expect possibly something like this (i know there is a translated version somewhere but can't find it at the moment)?

1758047757758.jpeg
 

SunlitZelkova

New Member
Registered Member
The point of ALBM is:
(1)significantly extend range,
(2)delegate penetration to missile at the same time, as H-6 isn't survivable and can be tracked by anything which has LOS of it, from afar. Even at low altitude over sea.

This isn't mission that requires a deep stealth bomber. It requires "just" passing by Japan southern island chain(or north of home islands, or over empty eastern Russia), preferably at low altitude (to make coastal radars irrelevant). For that we need reconnaissance, strikes at key fixed radars(tower mounted ones), and medium range fighter escort in and out; even H-6 can do this well enough. After we pass Japan, interceptors aren't effective anymore(they don't have neither speed nor fuel to catch transsonic bomber in a rear chase), ALBM itself can be launched from a huge arc away from CONUS, spanning good ~10k km. This is beyond any effective fighter patrol.

Whole mission profile is perfectly viable with current force structure.
Starting in early 2030s, add in J-36s, which can do roaming interceptions beyond japanese islands, and add taste to interceptors' life.

Yes, for conventional strikes. But if the ALBMs are intended to have a nuclear role, a situation may arise in which there isn't time to launch a massive aerial campaign to destroy air defenses in Japan. Stealth would help the bomber get through in that situation.

Eastern Russia isn't empty, and the bulk of the VKS' fighter strength is strung along the border with China. It would be great if Russia would allow overflights, but it isn't a good idea to depend on that, especially with a nuclear strike system.

TLDR: this is penetration aircraft, built specifically - for a lot of investment - to operate over States. Which is reasonable, b/c for all their forward-deployed toughness, contintental US are suprisingly soft. There's ironically some merit in B-2 like sacrifice towards low altitude flight, because it just makes things easier near island chains. But if you're sure you're to remain stealth enough over the spawn of design life - no need really.

With advancements in ballistic missile accuracy, this seems questionable. Have there been any actual indications the H-20 might be intended to operate *in* North American airspace? In this day and age, what advantage would there be to dropping bombs from directly over targets, as opposed to hitting them with ballistic or cruise missiles?

Whether making the H-20 an ALBM carrier makes sense or not, using it for non-stand off strikes would make even less sense.

I'm just asking if there is any source out there supporting that idea. I'm not trying to get too speculative.
 
Top