V-22 Osprey Thread - News, Pics, Videos

Yesterday at 5:33 PM
Sep 14, 2017while Marines Want a Truck-Mounted Rocket-Launcher that Fits in an Osprey
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related (videos inside):
US Marines Want Pint-Sized Rocket Artillery They can Carry in an MV-22 Osprey
October 27, 2017
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After demonstrating its ability
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from decks of U.S. Navy ships, the U.S. Marine Corps now says it is interested in a similar, but super-compact mobile weapon system small enough to fit inside its
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tilt-rotors or its future
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heavy lift helicopters. Such a vehicle would greatly increase the capabilities of Marine expeditionary elements, but even the service itself acknowledges it might just not be physically possible.

U.S. Marine Corps Major General David Coffman, presently serving as the U.S. Navy’s director for expeditionary warfare, explained the basic requirements
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on the sidelines of the National Defense Industry Association’s (NDIA) annual Expeditionary Warfare Conference, which ended on Oct. 26, 2017. The officer described a weapon that would have a “competitive” range and capability compared to the M142 High Mobility Artillery Rocket System, or
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, and its GPS-guided 227mm rockets, but on
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a High Mobility Multipurpose Wheeled Vehicle (HMMWV),
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, all of which could fit within the main cabin of an MV-22 or CH-53K.

“I don’t know what’s in the art of the possible, physics-wise, to get a vehicle that can withstand the recoil of rockets firing, and be a stable enough platform, and still be light enough to be lifted in a helicopter, and all that.” He told Military.com. “So I don’t know what industry can do, whether that’s possible or not … [but] that’s what we need.”

At its most fundamental, the notional requirement makes sense. The Marine Corps prides itself on being able to
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anywhere in the world. Navy amphibious groups conduct routine patrols carrying so-called Marine Expeditionary Units, with the joint force able to conduct independent air and ground operations. Long range fire support for those elements comes primarily from a small number of M327 120mm mortars and
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, both of which need another vehicle to tow them around the battlefield.

The Marines MV-22Bs or CH-53E Super Stallion can carry the “Triple-7,” but only with it slung underneath the aircraft. This extends the time it takes for Marines to get the howitzers into position, since they have to sling them up, fly where they need to go, then unhook the weapons and get them set up to fire. During an actual conflict,
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and troops on the ground, to say nothing
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or other environmental factors, would only complicate this type of operation. The heavy external load also severely cuts down the helicopter's combat radius.

This was part of the reason for the development of the M327 in the first place. Together with the small 4x4 M1162 Growler prime mover, Marines can back the heavy mortar into an Osprey or Super Stallion and then drive it right off after the aircraft touches down. This gives Marines a much more rapidly employable fire support option.

However, the M327 can only toss high-explosive mortars up to approximately five miles away, while the M777 can hit targets at nearly four times that range. On top of that, the 155mm howitzer can
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for precision attacks.

The Marines are developing a long-range, precision 120mm projectile, but it will still have just half the range of the bigger guns. Coffman also told Military.com that there is guided option for the M252 81mm mortar in the works that might make the bulkier M327 increasingly superfluous. This smaller weapon is man-portable and part of every Marine infantry company, making up for its shorter range by generally
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to forces in need of support.

What Coffman is describing is a system that combines the mobility of the M327, but can lob guided projectiles beyond even the range of the M777. The Marine Corps 6x6 truck-mounted HIMARS, which the general offered as an example of the kind of capability he wanted, can hit the enemy with a GPS-directed rocket up to 43 miles away.

On Oct. 22, 2017, Marines had fired 227mm rockets
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of the San Antonio-class landing platform dock USS Anchorage as part of the Dawn Blitz 2017 amphibious warfare exercise. The test underscored the flexibility and utility of HIMARS, something the Marine Corps
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are both looking to expand upon further. Coffman, who previously served as deputy commander of I Marine Expeditionary Force and head of its 1st Marine Expeditionary Brigade, the main Marine unit in the drill, was undoubtedly aware of this successful demonstration and its significance for the Corps going into the NDIA conference, which started on Oct. 24, 2017.

He would also be well aware that small,
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, manned by both the Army and the Marine Corps crews, have been an essential part of the campaign against ISIS
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. With both HIMARS and M777 howitzers, they have provided rapid, on-call, precision fire support to local forces that might otherwise have to wait for coalition aircraft to arrive on station. This will likely be a model that appears in future limited, counter-terrorism operations, as well.

An even lighter weight version would greatly expand the capabilities of smaller Marine units that might not be able to manage HIMARS, especially during limited independent missions more detached from established supply lines. The trucks themselves are far too big for even
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to carry internally or externally, requiring at least a
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into a combat zone. Army and Navy landing craft
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from amphibious ships or sea bases to shore.

Coffman’s concept could be difficult, if not impossible, to implement, though, especially if the goal remains to find a way to build a mini-HIMARS with anywhere near similar capabilities. The M327 is already pushing the boundaries of what the MV-22B can reasonably carry and is actually part of a complete
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(EFSS) that requires multiple aircraft to lug around.

One tilt-rotor or helicopter lugs around the M1162 and the mortar, while another brings in the similarly sized M1163 towing the M1164 ammunition trailer with 30 120mm mortars. Additional trips are necessary to keep up the supply of rounds during sustained operations.
... goes on right below due to size limit:
 
the rest of that article:
The CH-53K will be able to carry a Humvee internally, a major increase in capability in of itself, but it’s unclear if even that vehicle could handle the weight of a rocket artillery system with a range of more than 40 miles or the shock of repeatedly firing such a weapon. Whether such a truck-mounted launcher would still fit be able to fit inside the King Stallion is another important factor. There’s also the question of how fast Marines could keep up the supply of rockets for the crews once they land ashore, too.

That being said, various companies may already be developing systems that Coffman might find attractive. At the Association of the U.S. Army’s
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earlier in October 2017, Arnold Defense debuted a light-weight guided rocket system
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, which it mounted on the back of a 6x6 light vehicle chassis.

The setup features a four round launcher capable of firing the laser-guided Advanced Precision Kill Weapon System II (APKWS II) 70mm rocket. These weapons are already in service
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and the guidance kit offers a cheap and easy way to turn standard versions into precision weapons. Since it slots in between the rocket motor and the payload, it means the ordnance technicians can assemble the final rounds with a variety of different warheads, including more exotic options such as anti-armor penetrators and anti-personnel variants with hundreds of tiny metallic darts known as flechettes.

The immediate issue with using as Fletcher as the basis of a design to meet Coffman's requirements is that its a direct-fire weapon that fires a projectile that flies along a relatively flat trajectory. As such, it could be difficult to adapt it to hit targets indirectly just due to the flight profile of the rocket. In addition, its laser-guidance package means that either the vehicle itself or other personnel would have to mark the target, something Marines might be loathe to do in a firefight where they might be pinned down or otherwise sheltering behind cover.

It is possible that Arnold or another firm might be able to develop a GPS- or
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, but the final product would hardly match the capabilities of HIMARS. Fletcher only has a range of a little more than three miles, roughly equivalent to the M252 mortar and hardly the distances Coffman was talking about. However, the added mobility might make up for this by allow the vehicle to keep pace with Marines as with the 81mm weapon. It might be possible to develop an extended range 70mm rocket for surface-to-surface applications, too.

Alternatively, the Marines might be interested in a lightweight gun.
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an 105mm howitzer called Hawkeye that can fit on
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or another similar light vehicle. This weapon can reach targets around 12 miles away using rocket-assisted shells. There are also a number of lightweight, soft-recoil mortars on the market that can fit on small trucks, such as the 120mm
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from Israel’s Elbit and the Spanish EXPAL Integrated Mortar System,
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, which comes in 60mm and 81mm varieties.

“If we can get a self-contained vehicle that can fire rockets, a box of rockets on a truck that fits in the back of a [MV-22B] tiltrotor or a ’53-K [CH-53K, that’s what we’re after,” Coffman insisted to Military.com. “Let’s see what industry comes up with.”

It will be interesting to see how defense contractors try to meet the general’s requirements.
source:
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TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
The Expeditionary Fire Support System is getting more troubled for more reasons then those listed. First the mover is dated and the Marines have been looking at a cheaper option in the form of the MRZR furthermore there was no compatibility with established US mortar systems.
because of the small space of the Osprey cargo bay and issues with sling loading make these all tall orders.
120mm mortar systems and 105mm Howitzers have existing in system options for ammo.
However making them internally carry compatible with the Osprey is a tall order. a 120mm Mortar is the most the Army M326 Stowed mortar system ( using the M120 Mortar system) or the newer more advanced systems like the Spear.

A rocket system though is a tall order, when they don't want to lose range. I mean you could presumably use a old skool style towed launcher but That is getting you 4 miles maybe 5. They want MLRS ranges that's a 20 mile Rocket. 107 mm based Turkish TR107 based off the Chinese Type 63 gets you 7 miles.
To get that you need a larger rocket. The Israelis recently offered a 122mm system built on a humvee called the C Lynx. Problem again too wide too tall but closer to the right size. the 122mm is based of the BM21 Grad.
Basically the Marines have there work cut out for them.
 

Equation

Lieutenant General
The Expeditionary Fire Support System is getting more troubled for more reasons then those listed. First the mover is dated and the Marines have been looking at a cheaper option in the form of the MRZR furthermore there was no compatibility with established US mortar systems.
because of the small space of the Osprey cargo bay and issues with sling loading make these all tall orders.
120mm mortar systems and 105mm Howitzers have existing in system options for ammo.
However making them internally carry compatible with the Osprey is a tall order. a 120mm Mortar is the most the Army M326 Stowed mortar system ( using the M120 Mortar system) or the newer more advanced systems like the Spear.

A rocket system though is a tall order, when they don't want to lose range. I mean you could presumably use a old skool style towed launcher but That is getting you 4 miles maybe 5. They want MLRS ranges that's a 20 mile Rocket. 107 mm based Turkish TR107 based off the Chinese Type 63 gets you 7 miles.
To get that you need a larger rocket. The Israelis recently offered a 122mm system built on a humvee called the C Lynx. Problem again too wide too tall but closer to the right size. the 122mm is based of the BM21 Grad.
Basically the Marines have there work cut out for them.

Wow...talk about rapid mobile fire support team!:D:) It can be used both in urban hard to reach area, desert, and high terrain areas where enemy bunkers are dug in.

I want one!:)
 
"retweeting" also here
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Oorah
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! Welcome Osprey on the French ship Tonnerre.

DUZAJANWAAAAz8v.jpg
 
Sep 14, 2017
now noticed NAVAIR Kicking off V-22 Osprey Modernization Drive to Improve Commonality

it's USNI News
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and
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If you’re a pilot or mechanic working on the Marine Corps’
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, you probably spend a lot of time reinventing the wheel. That’s because the 129 MV-22Bs in service come in more than 70 different configurations, identical to the untrained eye but all subtly different — for example, in the cockpit layout, the electrical wiring, even the arrangement of bolts — which means they require subtly different flight checklists, maintenance procedures, and
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. If it’s not a logistical nightmare, it’s at least an acute headache — and more expensive than it needs to be.

That’s why the Marines and
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(NAVAIR), which buys aircraft for the Corps, is charging ahead with a program to reduce those 70-plus versions to 25 by 2027 and — the ultimate goal — approximately five by 2030. Common Configuration – Readiness and Modernization (CC-RAM) will also upgrade the 129 existing Block B Ospreys to the Block C configuration now coming off the assembly line. (The Marines are also buying 151 brand-new Cs). The upgrade improves everything from weather radar to flare dispensers, from night-vision displays to how much data is available to the passengers so
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to the target.

CC-RAM kicked off last fall with a $57 million contract to V-22 manufacturers Bell and Boeing, as our USNI news colleagues
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at the time. On Jan. 31st, the Bell-Boeing Joint Program Office
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an additional $70 million (well, $69,668,099) to overhaul the first three aircraft. The very first is now at the Boeing factory in Philadelphia; work will also occur in Bell’s Fort Worth, Texas plant. There’s no official, public estimate for the total cost of the program.

That $70 million is about the cost of a new Osprey; to modify three aircraft is $23 million apiece. But we can’t extrapolate that cost over all 129 Block Bs. Those 70-plus different configurations vary widely in how difficult they are to upgrade. Some require major overhaul, some are minor. And, as a general principle of defense programs, unit costs tend to go down over time as the contractors figure out the most efficient way to do things.

All this may seem mundane compared to the strategic and operational concepts we often discuss. But
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and logisticians know painfully well how a battle can be lost for want of a nail — or any other seemingly insignificant repair part.

The vaunted German panzers of World War II were a logistical nightmare because they came in too many types, with too many configurations, all created as the perfectionist Teutonic artisans on the assembly line kept tinkering. (And don’t even ask about the Wehrmacht’s eccentric collection of supply trucks). Meanwhile the Americans and Russians mass-produced M4 Shermans and T-34s. When a unit is in combat, lives are on the line, and spare parts are in short supply so you don’t want 70 different versions of the same aircraft.
source is BreakingDefense
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makes me wonder whose idea it was to create seventy variants of ... in the first place
 

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
makes me wonder whose idea it was to create seventy variants of ... in the first place
Everyone who Kept complaining about V22 being a death trap.
No seriously, The 70 different types is because the Marines to fix issues kept making changes to the Aircraft as it was in Production. These modifications were meant to improve reliability and capabilities.
 

Air Force Brat

Brigadier
Super Moderator
Everyone who Kept complaining about V22 being a death trap.
No seriously, The 70 different types is because the Marines to fix issues kept making changes to the Aircraft as it was in Production. These modifications were meant to improve reliability and capabilities.

that's right, that article is very mis-leading in its terminology, probably because the chick that wrote it, while being a very nice girl, doesn't really understand the issue?

I've almost completely shut down on twitter, because sadly it more like crickets chirping back and forth at one another, all the little cutsie, cutsie defense journo's are publishing for the oooh and aaaahs of their cutsie little circle???

my apologies, actually Megans article is detailed and factual, its Sydney's take that kind of misses the point??
 
Everyone who Kept complaining about V22 being a death trap.
No seriously, The 70 different types is because the Marines to fix issues kept making changes to the Aircraft as it was in Production. These modifications were meant to improve reliability and capabilities.
was now thinking how to put it ... you know, for me 'US Military' used to be synonymical with 'logistics' and 'standardization'; now they'll spend, on average, one third of the cost of a new machine "to overhaul" an old one Today at 8:06 AM; interesting, isn't it?
 
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