US to shoot down disabled spy satellite

Scratch

Captain
The SM-3 is about 1m longer, 15cm thinner and 300kg heavier than the ASM-135 ASAT missile that was test-launched five times from an F-15. I guess with the right mods it should be quiet possible to air-launch the SM-3.
I also think the air-launched ASAT approach is more practical, since you can use a smaller missle and are more flexible.
 

crobato

Colonel
VIP Professional
I seem to notice that some of our posters are having the classic R-L problem in distinguishing the sounds between the two consonants, the famous "Rice-Lice" problem that occurs with native Chinese speakers.

Its spelled "shuttle" not "shutter". It would help readers not to get struck when they read the text. Please note its not the first time I've seen this and all from different people. Nothing wrong about it, this is an honest mistake.

In this regard, the further development of the spacecraft, the US is on the air-space shutter, not only for anti-satellite weapons, but also the platform for attacking on earth enemy's strategic objectives from space.
 

crobato

Colonel
VIP Professional
An SM-3 may be a bit large to be air launched. Since I'm no areanatuical expert perhaps some one like crobato can elaborate.

SM-3 demensions..

Launch mass
Length 6.55 m (21 ft, 6 in)
Diameter 0.34 m (13.5 in)
Wingspan 1.57 m (61.8 in)

10 minutes later..I just realized that a Sunburn/Moskit is quite large and it can be air launched...So can an SM-3 be air launched??? Maybe. In the correct configuration.

If its only 300kg heavier and 1 meter longer, I think it can be air launched from an F-15 on a zoom climb, especially if the F-15 is beefed up with new engines. I think the problem is that you cannot roll an AEGIS destroyer on land, which you need for the missile's tracking and the F-15 has to operate from a land base. Doing a zoom climb with that missile on an F-18 is more of a stretch however.

The ballistic missile approach is much better for higher satellites. The higher the satellite, the faster the speed of the vehicle to escape gravity. You have to use bigger rockets for this one. There is a big difference between a target on a 210km decaying orbit, and another at 865km on a rising orbit.
 

gartheven2000

Just Hatched
Registered Member
Just to ask for opinion...so what do you think will be the next stage in the technological evolution of interception? personally i feel it might be land & followed by naval energy based weapons like rail and laser.
 

Scratch

Captain
Again going through the stats, the current version, block IA, as well as the next (IB) are said to be 34cm / 13,4in in diameter. Block IIA, coming in 2012-14, will have a 21in / 53cm diameter body to fully use the available space of the Mk41 cell. Thus it will be able to carry even more propellant. That would enable it to reach even further.

I also think you could just let the F-15 operate from a costal base and have the actual intercept happen over or close to the sea. Thus, an AEGIS vessel could provide the tracking; incorporating the needed datalinks shouldn't be that hard.

And I also guess, if needed, one could just put a SPY-1B radar + AEGIS system anywhere on a land base to provide tracking.

Wich goes back to Jeff's proposal to put loaded Mk41 launchers at strategic locations. Hava a affiliate radar near by, and you probably get a nice, safe ABM umbrella ...


On the laser issue. Of course a land based laser can be fed with mouch more energy. But I'm wondering if an ABL is also able to hurt sats in orbit, since it doesn't have to penetrate the first, and densest(?), 10km of our atmosphere.
 
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crobato

Colonel
VIP Professional
Just to ask for opinion...so what do you think will be the next stage in the technological evolution of interception? personally i feel it might be land & followed by naval energy based weapons like rail and laser.


In terms of kinetic interception, the next stage is a specialized vehicle called either a KKV (Kinetic Kill Vehicle) or EKV (Exoatmospheric Kill Vehicle).

To understand this, lets go down basic physics. If you want to go higher, faster, you want less weight and mass. A KKV/EKV is a design in maximum minimalism, it only has what it needs.

The problem of using missiles like the SM-3 is precisely that, its a missile. Its a design with a lot of mass that is useless when it comes to space. The fact that the SM-3 is 300kg heavier than the ASM-135 is already a clear disadvantage because of the extra mass, even though you can put more propellant on a larger missile. Even with extra propellant, you can defeat the advantages of this because you would need a larger rocket motor and casing to contain the propellant and that will all add up to the dead mass once the propellant is all burned up.

As a missile for example, you cannot discard the main booster body like you can do with a multistage carrier rocket. Once the fuel is expended, you're still carrying that body like dead weight. Another is the SM-3, being a SAM, has a radar guiding system. Active radar seekers will work against targets at what you may call at "jet plane" speeds but against something at orbital speeds you would need something something with much shorter frequencies to get the precision it needs. Hence when it comes to dealing with orbital speeds, you want a thermal seeker instead, and the SM-3 carrying a second seeker in the form of form of thermal is the key element to this operation. But nonetheless it still carries the active radar system, plus the batteries for it, and that's dead weight. Another dead weight is the explosive warhead, which is meant for proximity explosion against missiles and aircraft targets but means nothing in the dead of space where there is no atmosphere to create a shock wave. And there is more dead weight in the form of aerodynamic controls and their systems within, which is all useless in space.

You have a 1300 to 1500kg missile. You subtract the first booster stage and the fuel expended on the main booster, and how much weight you have left?

In contrast an EKV can only weigh as little as 30 to 50kg. It probably only has an infrared seeker, a datalink, and a small thrust vectoring motor to adjust its flight. The multistage rocket will discard its booster stages once by one, and in the last stage, ejects its EKV payload into space, leaving this small tiny thing moving at incredible speeds. EKV research and development has been up to now, mostly in the conceptual and mockup stages. Except for one country.

Prior to the use of the KT-1 booster in the ASAT test, the two previous launches of the KT-1 booster involved microsatellites (>50kg) which fits the weight category of an EKV.
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
In terms of kinetic interception, the next stage is a specialized vehicle called either a KKV (Kinetic Kill Vehicle) or EKV (Exoatmospheric Kill Vehicle).

To understand this, lets go down basic physics. If you want to go higher, faster, you want less weight and mass. A KKV/EKV is a design in maximum minimalism, it only has what it needs.

The problem of using missiles like the SM-3 is precisely that, its a missile. Its a design with a lot of mass that is useless when it comes to space. The fact that the SM-3 is 300kg heavier than the ASM-135 is already a clear disadvantage because of the extra mass, even though you can put more propellant on a larger missile. Even with extra propellant, you can defeat the advantages of this because you would need a larger rocket motor and casing to contain the propellant and that will all add up to the dead mass once the propellant is all burned up.

As a missile for example, you cannot discard the main booster body like you can do with a multistage carrier rocket. Once the fuel is expended, you're still carrying that body like dead weight. Another is the SM-3, being a SAM, has a radar guiding system. Active radar seekers will work against targets at what you may call at "jet plane" speeds but against something at orbital speeds you would need something something with much shorter frequencies to get the precision it needs. Hence when it comes to dealing with orbital speeds, you want a thermal seeker instead, and the SM-3 carrying a second seeker in the form of form of thermal is the key element to this operation. But nonetheless it still carries the active radar system, plus the batteries for it, and that's dead weight. Another dead weight is the explosive warhead, which is meant for proximity explosion against missiles and aircraft targets but means nothing in the dead of space where there is no atmosphere to create a shock wave. And there is more dead weight in the form of aerodynamic controls and their systems within, which is all useless in space.

You have a 1300 to 1500kg missile. You subtract the first booster stage and the fuel expended on the main booster, and how much weight you have left?

In contrast an EKV can only weigh as little as 30 to 50kg. It probably only has an infrared seeker, a datalink, and a small thrust vectoring motor to adjust its flight. The multistage rocket will discard its booster stages once by one, and in the last stage, ejects its EKV payload into space, leaving this small tiny thing moving at incredible speeds. EKV research and development has been up to now, mostly in the conceptual and mockup stages. Except for one country.

Prior to the use of the KT-1 booster in the ASAT test, the two previous launches of the KT-1 booster involved microsatellites (>50kg) which fits the weight category of an EKV.
I believe that the SM3 is a three stage missile that discards the stages as it goes. I am not sure what the final stage is...but you can bet that it has reduced as much additional mass as possible outside of the kinetic warhead...perhaps that final stage does produce a kill vehicle, itself manueverable...but I am not sure on that.
 

crobato

Colonel
VIP Professional
I wasn't really keeping up. The SM-3 is a third stage, and the last stage has KKV characteristics. However, with such a specialized design, this rules out the SM-3 being a dual role missile and can't be used for SAM duties.

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Here is how the actual EKV should look like.

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Goodrich's version

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YTM-MK2

Just Hatched
Registered Member
Why would it want to be used as a SAM when the next cell in the MK41 is loaded with SM-2/ESSM? What SM-3 achieved is legacy support with AEGIS, and that's really good enough. Any more functions would just be unnecessary redundancy.
 

Scratch

Captain
Another brief sight on how the SM-3 is set to evolve is available
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.

AFAIK, the SM-3 was an ABM missile from the beginning, never intended to play a conventional SAM role also. Wich is why only some of the USN CGs and DDGS will be moded to launch it, I think.
 
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