US Navy & PLAN - South China Sea Situation News (Closed)

Status
Not open for further replies.

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
I disagree with the notion that great power conflicts arise due to the inherent nature and presence of competing powers per se. I believe the source is in conflicting ideologies and philosophical worldviews. For example, I don't believe in might is right and is a notion I find repulsive and just nauseating. If China continues in its path and holds the view that it can just take what it wants by fiat than eventually the pushback will come because there is a competing worldview that just do not accept such an approach.

I can respect the fact that you value international law and place it on a pedestal... but the proposition of common laws rarely occur without major intergroup conflicts preceding it, laws are never written without the influence of power and might from certain parties imposing their own interests upon them, and those laws are in turn enforced using might, and sometimes those with power might even ignore those laws when it suits themselves.

Might indeed is right, it's just that it's after a century of discourse shaping, that might now exists in the form of certain aspects of international law.

So in my opinion, conflicts arise simply due to perceived threats and power differentials. Differences in worldviews and willingness to follow "international law" (whatever that means) are merely proxies of larger strategic competitions of vulnerability and security.
 

Brumby

Major
I can respect the fact that you value international law and place it on a pedestal... but the proposition of common laws rarely occur without major intergroup conflicts preceding it, laws are never written without the influence of power and might from certain parties imposing their own interests upon them, and those laws are in turn enforced using might, and sometimes those with power might even ignore those laws when it suits themselves.

Might indeed is right, it's just that it's after a century of discourse shaping, that might now exists in the form of certain aspects of international law.

So in my opinion, conflicts arise simply due to perceived threats and power differentials. Differences in worldviews and willingness to follow "international law" (whatever that means) are merely proxies of larger strategic competitions of vulnerability and security.

I agree with your comments on the shaping and development of international norms. The peace that we have enjoyed in recent years are underwritten by and are fruits arising from those conflicts. If China has something constructive to offer that continues to build on that structure than it would be meaningful. If China wants to take Asia and the rest of the world back to imperialistic practices that it becomes "rule by law" instead of "rule of law" then it is highly problematic.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
I agree with your comments on the shaping and development of international norms. The peace that we have enjoyed in recent years are underwritten by and are fruits arising from those conflicts. If China has something constructive to offer that continues to build on that structure than it would be meaningful. If China wants to take Asia and the rest of the world back to imperialistic practices that it becomes "rule by law" instead of "rule of law" then it is highly problematic.

I think you are viewing China's intentions in too much of an "all or nothing" scope. The fact that China may view certain current norms and laws as unjust or if China may be seeking to change them, does not mean China is seeking to turnover the entire global system.
I also think you are viewing the current world order in rose tinted glasses, as there are many actions committed by certain world powers in recent history which fill the description of "rule by law" rather than "rule of law".

That said, it is so very ironic to me, that many of China's current territorial disputes are due to the historical nature of its holdings in previous dynasties (arguably the Qing and prior), which were lost due to subsequently experienced dispossession at the hands of European and Japanese imperialism and aggression... and that now China is finally able to contest for their reclamation, it is the one accused of being imperialistic, due to the recent (scale of decades) establishment of certain norms and laws which contest that those claims are in turn invalid... [though the charge of imperialism could be viewed as technically true in a sense, given the territories were part of Chinese empires which subsequently became the modern Chinese state.]

Obviously, two wrongs (or four) do not make a right, but my goodness there is something morbidly funny about this entire situation.
 

Brumby

Major
I think you are viewing China's intentions in too much of an "all or nothing" scope. The fact that China may view certain current norms and laws as unjust or if China may be seeking to change them, does not mean China is seeking to turnover the entire global system.
The problem is China's own creation. A good start would be to actually explain to the rest of the world its plans and lay out its case like in the SCS. If it has a valid historic claim then put it on the table.

I also think you are viewing the current world order in rose tinted glasses, as there are many actions committed by certain world powers in recent history which fill the description of "rule by law" rather than "rule of law".
I know the favourite talking point on this is the US and the Iraq invasion. At least at a minimum, the US laid out its case to the world and at the UN. What we have with China is the ever favourite line "it is indisputable".

Obviously, two wrongs (or four) do not make a right, but my goodness there is something morbidly funny about this entire situation.
In one sense, I have to agree with you on this.
 
Last edited:

Blackstone

Brigadier
There is a minimum threshold with FONOP. If that threshold is considered too provocative then don't proceed with it. What we have ended up is just total confusion and that to me is a symptom of incompetence.


The Philippines and Vietnam are the frontline states because their interest are clearly threatened if unchecked. Indonesia and Malaysia are close to throwing in the towels with ongoing developments and so the days of fence sitting might be coming to a close. The rest are not directly affected and will continue to fence sit.
Very good, Brumby, we agree on all points in your post.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
The problem is China's own creation. A good start would be to actually to explain to the rest of the world its plans and lay out its case like in the SCS. If it has a valid historic claim then put it on the table.

I don't disagree with you here, but I do think China is interested in keeping its position ambiguous and amassing as much power as it can before fully settling the issue in its favour as much as possible, in a peaceful way.

But even in the current situation, I do not see how what you described leads to the conclusion that China is seeking to take the whole of asia or the world through imperialistic practices as you described.


I know the favourite talking point on this is the US and the Iraq invasion. At least at a minimum, the US laid out its case to the world and at the UN. What we have with China is the ever favourite line "it is indisputable".

It is actually not uncommon for countries involved in territorial disputes to use the "it is indisputable" line to assert their claim. I think Japan did so regarding the Diaoyu/Senkaku islands dispute with China, and China got pretty pissed as well.
I optimally think all nations should never use the "it is indisputable" line in territorial disputes, but OTOH, nations are hardly going to admit "well actually it is under dispute," especially if the dispute is a high stakes one where little to no goodwill is left between various parties.


In one sense, I have to agree with you on this.

I should add that a part of me feels like two wrongs should make a right, but it simply isn't practical.
That's what makes it so terribly funny.
 

Brumby

Major
But even in the current situation, I do not see how what you described leads to the conclusion that China is seeking to take the whole of asia or the world through imperialistic practices as you described.
We are starting to get off base but I think it is important to make a point that is simply my opinion. Fundamentally I don't subscribe to the notion of a Jekyll and Hyde behavioural mode. In other words, the best way to judge China's future actions is the way China behaves today. Essentially how China behaves internationally is In my view simply an extension of how it manages its internal affairs. Intrinsically it is guided by the concept of "rule by law", a practice that is a residual from the imperialistic past. This practice is a sum of a number of core components including :
(i) Law is an instrument to govern the people and not the governing body. In other words, the governing body is above the law as in imperial China with the emperor. It is not subject to challenge aka "indisputable". The very reason why China has openly stated it will not abide by any Hague ruling on the SCS.
(ii) Laws are pronounced by fiat and withdrawn by will. No explanations are necessary because of (i)
(iii) Laws are open to interpretation by the governing body and changes in interpretation is subject to the governing body because of (i) and (ii)
(iv) There is no accountability because there are no checks and balances resulting in lack of transparencies. It is symptomatic of the rule by law as embodied in (i), (ii) and (iii).

When I talked about imperialistic practices it is in the context of the above and they are essentially played out in the SCS. That in my view is the potential new world order under China.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
We are starting to get off base but I think it is important to make a point that is simply my opinion. Fundamentally I don't subscribe to the notion of a Jekyll and Hyde behavioural mode. In other words, the best way to judge China's future actions is the way China behaves today. Essentially how China behaves internationally is In my view simply an extension of how it manages its internal affairs. Intrinsically it is guided by the concept of "rule by law", a practice that is a residual from the imperialistic past. This practice is a sum of a number of core components including :
(i) Law is an instrument to govern the people and not the governing body. In other words, the governing body is above the law as in imperial China with the emperor. It is not subject to challenge aka "indisputable". The very reason why China has openly stated it will not abide by any Hague ruling on the SCS.
(ii) Laws are pronounced by fiat and withdrawn by will. No explanations are necessary because of (i)
(iii) Laws are open to interpretation by the governing body and changes in interpretation is subject to the governing body because of (i) and (ii)
(iv) There is no accountability because there are no checks and balances resulting in lack of transparencies. It is symptomatic of the rule by law as embodied in (i), (ii) and (iii).

When I talked about imperialistic practices it is in the context of the above and they are essentially played out in the SCS. That in my view is the potential new world order under China.

Err. I think you're generalizing China's handling of a very specific dispute situation (in a very specific part of the world in a very specific period of time) to how you believe China would act in the entirety of the foreseeable future on a global scale, if it were the head of a "new world order".
I'm sure I don't need to describe to you why the weight of the premise is insufficient for the grandness of the partciular claim. I can take an equally unique situation for any other country which behaved in a particular unique way for a period of time, and use that brief period of time suggest that the country would thus behave in that same way for the rest of its future, which would be an illogical argument.

----

As for trying to draw parallels between how China handles its own internal affairs and how it handles external affairs... I believe it is awkward at best, because it seems like the fundamental premise (aka premise i) you're using to draw on this parallel is that China is calling a piece of territory as "indisputable" and that China is not going to comply with the ruling of the Hague (and thus somehow reflective of the "will of the emperor" or whatever)... but these are both things that other nations have also done in various past situations as well, and not unique to China. The explanation for why China acted similarly in this case could thus be seen no differently to why other nations did so -- because of their own self interests... and not due to some stereotypical (and almost racist tbh) caricature of China's "imperial past" manifesting in the modern day...

Premises ii, iii and iv may exist in China's management of its own internal affairs to a degree [edit: though I think they are also under constant reform and improvement], but I see no evidence for China seeking to do so in international affairs in a general sense beyond a few limited ways in the SCS (if that at all). If anything, China seems to have shown itself to be willing to be more open to certain foreign concerns, such as the openness of the AIIB, or various trade issues mediated by international bodies, or regarding various climate change talks, etc.
 
Last edited:

Brumby

Major
Err. I think you're generalizing China's handling of a very specific dispute situation (in a very specific part of the world in a very specific period of time) to how you believe China would act in the entirety of the foreseeable future on a global scale, if it were the head of a "new world order".
I'm sure I don't need to describe to you why the weight of the premise is insufficient for the grandness of the partciular claim. I can take an equally unique situation for any other country which behaved in a particular unique way for a period of time, and use that brief period of time suggest that the country would thus behave in that same way for the rest of its future, which would be an illogical argument.
The "rule by law" philosophical approach is a practice that is borne out in China's imperial past and is as much a historical worldview of "rule of law" as in western society. The generalization is on purpose to highlight the underlying philosophical thought of governing in Chinese culture. The SCS is an example to demonstrate such a concept in action. You are free to disagree and I respect your disagreement. It is an opinion but I have taken the effort to lay out the basis of such a view.
As for trying to draw parallels between how China handles its own internal affairs and how it handles external affairs... I believe it is awkward at best, because it seems like the fundamental premise (aka premise i) you're using to draw on this parallel is that China is calling a piece of territory as "indisputable" and that China is not going to comply with the ruling of the Hague (and thus somehow reflective of the "will of the emperor" or whatever)... but these are both things that other nations have also done in various past situations as well, and not unique to China. The explanation for why China acted similarly in this case could thus be seen no differently to why other nations did so -- because of their own self interests... and not due to some stereotypical (and almost racist tbh) caricature of China's "imperial past" manifesting in the modern day...
The main difference in philosophy between "rule by law" and rule of law" is that the former sees "law" as merely an instrument to govern and is subservient to the one who wields it. In other words, it is an instrument of convenience subject to choice of application and interpretation with no constant in meaning and usage. In western concept of "rule of law", the laws are a constant and becomes a constrain to any governing body. No one is above it and application and meaning are consistent.
In the SCS example, China is selective in which part of UNCLOS it wishes to follow and just ignore those it doesn't like. UNCLOS provision is clear that the tribunal's decisions are final and binding and yet China says it will not abide by it. UNCLOS is clear on the meaning of innocent passage and yet China continues to push an interpretation that it prefers. These are all examples of a philosophical view of "rule by law".
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
The "rule by law" philosophical approach is a practice that is borne out in China's imperial past and is as much a historical worldview of "rule of law" as in western society. The generalization is on purpose to highlight the underlying philosophical thought of governing in Chinese culture. The SCS is an example to demonstrate such a concept in action. You are free to disagree and I respect your disagreement. It is an opinion but I have taken the effort to lay out the basis of such a view.

I disagree that such a dramatic supposed divergence in philosophy exists, and I especially dispute the existence of such a divergence in philosophy regarding the way China and other nations behave on the global stage, because you are assuming that the way China is currently acting in a very specific situation (SCS) is reflective of how it always acts, despite ignoring all the vast majority of situations where China's actions on the world stage are perfectly legitimate.
I also am not very happy with the way you are using the word "culture". Despite being Chinese myself, I appreciate that I have very limited understanding of the long and complex history of China's culture to governance (though not for a lack of trying), and I think if one wants to try and draw any kind of parallels of China today and China's past practices would require an understanding of both China's actions today and China's history.
Now, I do not understand China's history and whatever cultural tradition of governance as extensively as I should, and I would argue that you probably do not understand it well enough to claim that such a specific and particular philosophy (of "rule by law") existed in the exact form you describe to such an extent that it could be described as "underlying philosophical thought" -- however we are able to appreciate China's current actions on the world stage, which I think we are both able to perceive. And thus, when we go about this basis of assessing China's actions on the world stage, I think it's fair to say that there are only very few limited, specific and unique situations when China's actions could be considered to be "rule by law" like how you describe, thus I believe your original position about imperialism of whatever when China is the head of a new world order is flawed.

In short, your claim is too ambitious and not supported by sufficient premises or evidence. I will offer an alternative claim in the second part of my post which I think is more logical and easier to defend.


The main difference in philosophy between "rule by law" and rule of law" is that the former sees "law" as merely an instrument to govern and is subservient to the one who wields it. In other words, it is an instrument of convenience subject to choice of application and interpretation with no constant in meaning and usage. In western concept of "rule of law", the laws are a constant and becomes a constrain to any governing body. No one is above it and application and meaning are consistent.
In the SCS example, China is selective in which part of UNCLOS it wishes to follow and just ignore those it doesn't like. UNCLOS provision is clear that the tribunal's decisions are final and binding and yet China says it will not abide by it. UNCLOS is clear on the meaning of innocent passage and yet China continues to push an interpretation that it prefers. These are all examples of a philosophical view of "rule by law".

If you said that in the SCS situation China was doing "rule by law" or whatever it is you're calling it, then I wouldn't disagree with you as much [edit: the problem is your generalization]. As to the tribunal, I should again emphasize that China is not the first nation to reject the ICJ's rulings. China has also made it clear that its territorial claims predate UNCLOS and are not bound by it -- this is called trying to interpret the situation in the best way for their own self interests.

The problem is that you are using a very unique situation and generalizing it to believe that this is how China would act in every situation in its dealings on the international stage in future in a potential new world order. That is the kind of illogical generalization which I simply cannot agree with, as the burden of evidence for such a large claim must be far greater than merely how China acts in the SCS dispute, which is a very unique situation.

[This part is the alternative claim I mentioned earlier:]
At best, you can argue that the SCS situation shows that China in future may be willing to contest certain international norms in future in situations which it perceives as vital to its strategic interests, if it feels like that is the only way to protect those interests -- that is quite different to laying out broad strokes that when China is the head of a new world order it would seek to carry out "imperialistic practices" to "take the rest of Asia and the rest of the world".
Trying to use the SCS situation to argue that it is somehow reflective of underlying Chinese philosophy towards governing is an even bigger claim that would require even more evidence as well... and I've already described in the earlier part of my post as to why I think such a claim based off the current evidence we have of China's overall behaviour on the world stage and the current (lack of) understanding of Chinese culture and governance in its long history and how it may relate to its present basis of international relations, is fundamentally logically flawed.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top