US Navy DDG 1000 Zumwalt Class

Jeff Head · Dec 10, 2015

strehl said:
I don't know if they will go through the expense of removing the AGS guns on these 3 ships to do this but any follow on will probably be designed around railguns (and maybe lasers for self defense).

I am pretty sure the LBJ will come out of construction with one rail gun. Of course that will depend on how good it actually does at sea...but we have another 3-4 years to find out.

If that occurs (meaning the LBJ gets one), then look for the other two to get a single rail gun at some point in a future maintenance period.

Jeff Head · Dec 10, 2015

Bltizo said:
Jeff, my confusion arises from the somewhat strange (but impressive) combination of design features and subsystems, as well as cost and limited production run of the Zumwalt class, which altogether creates a sense that certain of its missions could have been better and more affordably taken up by a different ship design.

It goes without saying that the role of the ship on paper will be as a large multi role surface combatant with an emphasis on fire support.
It is only once the potential concept of operations of the ship is looked at when compared with other potential alternatives that could have been developed, that the confusion arises.

Fair enough.

But I believe that the Zumwalts will be used at sea in normal operations. I believe they will see combat in support of US ground forces.

I also think it is possible, depending on what happens next November that we may see more of them built.

Blitzo · Dec 10, 2015

Jeff Head said:
Fair enough.

But I believe that the Zumwalts will be used at sea in normal operations. I believe they will see combat in support of US ground forces.

I also think it is possible, depending on what happens next November that we may see more of them built.

Yes, I absolutely agree the Zumwalt class will be used in standard operations within the USN -- my position regarding the Zumwalt's "roles" revolve mostly around its utility against medium and high capability opponents and whether any of its roles may have been better discharged by other alternative designs rather than the ship the USN currently has.

Brumby · Dec 10, 2015

Jeff Head said:
They were designed to be a class of 32. That was the design and the ships are outfitted accordingly to fulfill their role

There could easily be more ordered with a change in Administrations and a supporting Congress. The construction line is going to be active through the election and into the first years of the new admin. I have a feeling that scenario will be available.

Whether they order more or not, is yet to be seen.

But the ships are being built to do the job they were intended for. They will go to sea and do so. They will be involved in combat operations in support of the US Marines and other ground elements...I can pretty much promise it.

Heck, every major surface combatant has the capability of adding technologies, testing them, and then instituting them.

This will be no different. In this case, these vessels were designed from the onset to have the emerging technologies implemented on them. The Rail Gun, the all electric drive, the lasers, PVLS etc., etc. They were designed to receive these things.

So, in a sense they will demonstrate those technologies...but they will not just do that or be dedicated to that...they will receive them as designed and then operationally use them.

True technology demonstrators are not used predominantly in actual operational duties. These will be. You betcha.

And there may well end up being more of them.

I see a parallel with the Zumwalt to that of the Seawolf where eventually the technologies introduced would be leveraged onto future CGX/DDX just like what happened with the Virginia class because of Seawolf.

The futuristic Zumwalt and the new technologies in a sense was too ahead of its time given the headwind of a budgetary constrained environment. Having said that, I believe much can be leveraged from the platform which will provide the foundation for operational learnings and future pathways for the design and adoption of new technologies onto CGX and DDX. I do not believe there will be further Zumwalts beyond the 3 but the substance of what can be leveraged from these boats will go into future classes.

Blitzo · Dec 10, 2015

Brumby said:
I see a parallel with the Zumwalt to that of the Seawolf where eventually the technologies introduced would be leveraged onto future CGX/DDX just like what happened with the Virginia class because of Seawolf.

The futuristic Zumwalt and the new technologies in a sense was too ahead of its time given the headwind of a budgetary constrained environment. Having said that, I believe much can be leveraged from the platform which will provide the foundation for operational learnings and future pathways for the design and adoption of new technologies onto CGX and DDX. I do not believe there will be further Zumwalts beyond the 3 but the substance of what can be leveraged from these boats will go into future classes.

I agree with the Seawolf comparison, but I think it seems like there will be much more of a delay for the Zumwalt class to get its own "Virginia class". There was a seven year delay between the commissioning of USS Seawolf and USS Virginia, but the USN has no new surface combatant programme in the next decade (until the new future surface combatant that will emerge around 2030) that can take on many of the Zumwalt class' new technologies.

Burke Flight III is simply too small.

Janiz · Dec 10, 2015

Bltizo said:
Yes, I absolutely agree the Zumwalt class will be used in standard operations within the USN -- my position regarding the Zumwalt's "roles" revolve mostly around its utility against medium and high capability opponents and whether any of its roles may have been better discharged by other alternative designs rather than the ship the USN currently has.

Well, with all respect, I assume that US Navy staff members had calculated it not once, not twice but many, many times before. And they know their work. By 2030 you could witness that it wasn't 'tech demonstrator' but went into full construction programme replacing Burke class for example.

Brumby · Dec 10, 2015

Bltizo said:
I agree with the Seawolf comparison, but I think it seems like there will be much more of a delay for the Zumwalt class to get its own "Virginia class". There was a seven year delay between the commissioning of USS Seawolf and USS Virginia, but the USN has no new surface combatant programme in the next decade (until the new future surface combatant that will emerge around 2030) that can take on many of the Zumwalt class' new technologies.

Burke Flight III is simply too small.

I agree as there is no money to embark on a new class given the Ohio replacement program. In any case, I think it will take substantial time to build up a knowledge base on the new technologies in terms of operational application and so both in terms of funding and the necessary window for learnings, we would be looking beyond the next 10 years. However I do believe the rail gun will go into the final vessel of this class.

Blitzo · Dec 10, 2015

Janiz said:
Well, with all respect, I assume that US Navy staff members had calculated it not once, not twice but many, many times before. And they know their work. By 2030 you could witness that it wasn't 'tech demonstrator' but went into full construction programme replacing Burke class for example.

I'm not sure what you mean -- I've stated before that many of Zumwalt's technologies may well end up on a future surface combatant that could emerge around 2030.

But the Zumwalt class as it is today does not seem like it will proceed beyond three ships, and the US Navy is putting its cash into the Flight III Burke prior to a future surface combatant.

As for procurement decisions -- I think it is a valid question as to whether the Zumwalt class represents the best combination of design features and capabilities for the ship that we have, and whether or not certain capabilities could have originally been developed separately in the 90s when the DDX, DD-21 and their various incarnations were first thought up.
This isn't to say the Zumwalt class isn't a very capable ship, the question is whether it is the most efficient solution for whatever role the USN has in mind for it.

Jeff Head · Dec 10, 2015

It is what it is.

The three ships are building.

One is in the water and on trials.

The second is probably within several months of its launch, either in the 2nd or 3rd quarter of 2016.

The third has components coming together (said to be approximately 25%) and will take the place of the second when it is launched in 2016, probably itself to be launched in the 2018 time frame.

The three will be used for what they were intended...and they will be fully operational and capable vessels.

We will have to wait and see...and let time tell us...if more Zumwalts are built (which I believe, depending on the election results of 2016, could be a possibility), or whether the technology is leveraged into a later class ofv essels.

At this point, it is true that no separate/new advanced design or program exists to leverage them to, so in that case, if it is a new hull, it is indeed years and years away.

But, the Zumwalt design is here and now, it is being built, and it could itself be modified into a new program in relative quick order if they so decided...or, as I say, they could decide simply to build more.

With a new admin supported by a friendly congress, any and all of that is possible.

Time will tell.

kwaigonegin · Dec 10, 2015

Janiz said:
Well, with all respect, I assume that US Navy staff members had calculated it not once, not twice but many, many times before. And they know their work. By 2030 you could witness that it wasn't 'tech demonstrator' but went into full construction programme replacing Burke class for example.

I don't believe so. I am hard press to believe Zumwalt will replace Burkes now even if that was the original intention. The Burke program will continue on for a few more decades and the future Flt III ships are essentially 'new' class of ships centered around AMDR with the new SPY 6 etc. It's technically not even an AEGIS vessel anymore even though I know to many aegis is equivalent to any ship with phase array radars.

US Navy DDG 1000 Zumwalt Class

Jeff Head

General

Jeff Head

General

Blitzo

Lieutenant General

Brumby

Major

Blitzo

Lieutenant General

Janiz

Senior Member

Brumby

Major

Blitzo

Lieutenant General

Jeff Head

General

kwaigonegin

Colonel