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TK3600

Major
Registered Member
I think its still early going, so it remains to be seen how it will work out. Four Constellations per year would be a good production amount and as you said would allow them to spare the destroyers from being overworked.

Depending on how things play out, the USN could be producing a good number of ships per year near the end of the decade. I think the best possible output case for them would look something like this:

  • 4 Frigates per year
  • 4 Destroyers (Arliegh Burke or whatever the successor is) per year
  • 3 Virginia SSN (2 without AUKUS) per year
  • 1 Columbia SSBN per year
So that is about ~120,174 tons of ships per year (destroyer weight is calculated based on Arleigh Burk Blk. 3). As I said above, that is likely the best possible outcome for the USN. So maybe you only get two destroyers a year instead of four. On top of that, you have to have the budget to pay for all of that shipbuilding and that amount of ships would be extremely expensive.
USN not having frigate is a big problem long overdue for solution. Either way it is a capability improvement. Perhaps the improvement in technique could translate in other ship types making them cheaper. That may having more frigate might not come at cost of other ships.
 

gelgoog

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
The "frigate" was supposed to be the LCS program. But LCS was a massive failure. Now, as usual for US companies, they claim the next big thing the Constellation class will be the ticket. But compare it with other ships in world navies. The electronics in it are utterly obsolete. Just look at the ship's mast. And the weapons payload for a ship of its displacement is lackluster. Compare it with the Russian Admiral Gorshkov class frigate. A ship with 50% less displacement yet it has roughly the same VLS cells and more advanced electronics. Once the Admiral Amelko frigate comes out the Russians will have twice the surface attack cells. i.e. the Constellation class will be less modern and less powerful than a two decade older Russian frigate design with less displacement. Pathetic.

The European FREMM frigate hull itself is perfectly ok. But the stuffing the Americans are putting inside the hull is pretty lackluster.
 
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CasualObserver

Junior Member
Registered Member
And the weapons payload for a ship of its displacement is lackluster. Compare it with the Admiral Gorshkov class frigate. A ship with 50% less displacement yet it has roughly the same VLS cells and more advanced electronics despite being two decades old design when the Constellation enters service.
The reason is obvious. Their main priority is seakeeping. It doesn't have be heavily armed either. On the other side Russians won't use Gorschkovs that far away from their ports as the Americans do.

It is simply a matter of differing priorities for different needs. Gorshkovs are top of the line frigates for the Russians while Constellations are just second rate ships for the USN.
 

TK3600

Major
Registered Member
The "frigate" was supposed to be the LCS program. But LCS was a massive failure. Now, as usual for US companies, they claim the next big thing the Constellation class will be the ticket. But compare it with other ships in world navies. The electronics in it are utterly obsolete. Just look at the ship's mast. And the weapons payload for a ship of its displacement is lackluster. Compare it with the Russian Admiral Gorshkov class frigate. A ship with 50% less displacement yet it has roughly the same VLS cells and more advanced electronics. Once the Admiral Amelko frigate comes out the Russians will have twice the surface attack cells. i.e. the Constellation class will be less modern and less powerful than a two decade older Russian frigate design with less displacement. Pathetic.

The European FREMM frigate hull itself is perfectly ok. But the stuffing the Americans are putting inside the hull is pretty lackluster.
Can't just look at Constellation and compare to foriegn types. That is not the point. The fact is US has a urgent need for Constellation and have currently nothing. Constellation plug that hole in the naval systems. Otherwise you must use a DDG or a LCS. From a systematic point of view, a mediocre frigate has a lot to offer. From industrial standpoint it also represents a tech upgrade.

Think of it like Liaoning carrier in PLAN. Is it the best of the best carriers? No. But it represents a capability previously unfilled, which makes it a big deal. It also represent an industrial upgrade for future naval systems.

Back on Gorshkov. Russians have different needs vs American, so how they design system should not be directly compared. Instead of packing good anti-ship missiles American can utilize carriers planes to launch LRASM. Therefore firepower is less priority. For fleet protection there is abundant amount of DDG, why make constellation so well protected? Same reason China don't replace every ship into 055. Not every ship needs to pack the maximum firepower and protection.
 
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gelgoog

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
The reason is obvious. Their main priority is seakeeping. It doesn't have be heavily armed either. On the other side Russians won't use Gorschkovs that far away from their ports as the Americans do.
So we keep hearing. But the Admiral Gorshkov did a 175 day round trip voyage around the globe successfully. I would say that means it has more than enough seakeeping qualities.

It is simply a matter of differing priorities for different needs. Gorshkovs are top of the line frigates for the Russians while Constellations are just second rate ships for the USN.
Except the Admiral Gorshkov wasn't originally meant to be such a thing. There were plans to make destroyers and cruisers as well. But because of financial cutbacks due to economic reasons (2009-2010 financial crisis, oil price collapse in the 2010s, etc) and technical difficulties putting ships in service (also loss of naval gas turbine and diesel engine imports from Ukraine and Germany) the destroyers (Project 22350M) and cruisers (Leader class) never happened.

Can't just look at Constellation and compare to foriegn types. That is not the point. The fact is US has a urgent need for Constellation and have currently nothing. Constellation plug that hole in the naval systems. Otherwise you must use a DDG or a LCS. From a systematic point of view, a mediocre frigate has a lot to offer. From industrial standpoint it also represents a tech upgrade.
Yes. It is a vast improvement. But the electronics and stuffing in this ship are a clear disappointment. I guess that can be fixed on later ships of the same line if the hull proves itself to be good enough but is still kind of pathetic for the self-proclaimed hyperpower really.

Think of it like Liaoning carrier in PLAN. Is it the best of the best carriers? No. But it represents a capability previously unfilled, which makes it a big deal. It also represent an industrial upgrade for future naval systems.
If we are talking about the Chinese Navy I would say the Type 054B is a much bigger step forwards. It has a diesel engine designed and made in China for the first time. That diesel engine has 50% more power than the older ones they used. The sensor suite in the Chinese frigate seems way more modern than the American one. It includes integrated mast for example. And it has been launched today while the US frigate hasn't even had its keel laid down.

The only thing I don't like in the Type 054B is the weapons payload which I think could be better. But it doesn't seem to be any worse than the one in the Constellation frigate. Same amount of VLS cells and a 100mm vs a 57mm gun.

Back on Gorshkov. Russians have different needs vs American, so how they design system should not be directly compared. Instead of packing good anti-ship missiles American can utilize carriers planes to launch LRASM. Therefore firepower is less priority. For fleet protection there is abundant amount of DDG, why make constellation so well protected? Same reason China don't replace every ship into 055. Not every ship needs to pack the maximum firepower and protection.
Except the DDGs are also obsolete. Even with upgrades the Arleigh Burke has only middling performance. It is behind Chinese and Japanese cruiser designs at the same time the US is going to scrap its only cruisers. Still it is better than nothing. At least they have a huge amount of such ships.
 
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SlothmanAllen

Junior Member
Registered Member
What is wrong with the electronics in the Constellation class? The main radar is SPY-6 derived, and most of the other systems look common with other US naval ships. 32 VLS was the requirement for the contract, along with 16 canister launched anti ship missiles. Not sure how that is under armed?

EDIT: and Arleigh Burke class destroyers are now “obsolete”! :D
 

SlothmanAllen

Junior Member
Registered Member
Sure Flight III has a GaN AESA radar. But it has no integrated mast for example. And most of the ships aren't Flight III. Most ships still have PESA radars. In fact they only have one Flight III ship in service.
That still doesn’t justify calling them “obsolete” or “middling”. The Burke’s have had constant upgrades over their life. They aren’t sailing around with 80’s electronics. Just look at all the work done for ballistic missile defence.
 

gelgoog

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
The US upgraded the electronics inside the ships, because you couldn't find the parts for the old computers anymore even if you wanted to, but the radars for Flight I/II are still the same. All PESA. And yes they have a more modern SM-6 missile which they developed with Japan. I expect China to have similar capability since the S-400 has ballistic missile shoot down capability and China has had access to that system for quite some time already.

Like I said in another thread I expect China to eventually make a replacement for the Type 052 destroyer with the more modern engines they should have. If they use the next generation gas turbine they have been developing with intercooler based on GT-25000IC, and the new CS16V27 diesels on new destroyers then they can make a new CODOG destroyer with around 10000 tons displacement.
 
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ansy1968

Brigadier
Registered Member
The US upgraded the electronics inside the ships, because you couldn't find the parts for the old computers anymore even if you wanted to, but the radars for Flight I/II are still the same. All PESA. And yes they have a more modern SM-6 missile which they developed with Japan. I expect China to have similar capability since the S-400 has ballistic missile shoot down capability and China has had access to that system for quite some time already.

Like I said in another thread I expect China to eventually make a replacement for the Type 052 destroyer with the more modern engines they should have. If they use the next generation gas turbine they have been developing with intercooler based on GT-25000IC, and the new CS16V27 diesels on new destroyers then they can make a new CODOG destroyer with around 10000 tons displacement.
Like this one bro, updated Type 52E variant?

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哈喽大家好,我是西葛西,欢迎大家收看我的频道CG观军事。 近日一张052D新构型的效果图流传网络,据说是某出口的5000吨级 ...
 
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