US F/A-XX and F-X 6th Gen Aircraft News Thread

[tphuang]

Looks like 6th gen still hasn't selected a vendor yet.

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I do find it surprising it's taken them this long. Both F-22 and F-35 took about a year from first X plane taking off to selection. This is taking at least 2 years. F-22/F-35 took about 5 to 6 years from selecting vendor to first prototype flight. In both cases, it took another 8 to 10 years from different variants to go from first flight to IOC. Even if they are faster than F-22/F-35 for both stages, but more than F-15 ( 3 and 4 years for the 2 phases) Let's say 4 years and 6 years. It would still not be delivered for evaluation until very end of this decade and achieve IOC until 2033. I find the 2030 projection to be a little too optimistic for a complicated new design like this.

 

[anzha]

Looks like 6th gen still hasn't selected a vendor yet.


I do find it surprising it's taken them this long.

It's interesting and contradictory with what they said earlier that the program had entered the EMD phase. That said, in the recent article on the B-21's companion UCAV being cancelled, they did affirm they are moving ahead with the Loyal Wingman (men?) for the NGAD.

Wild speculation with no basis: the manned portion has been selected already and entered EMD. The Loyal Wingman/men are in downselect.

 

[tphuang]

It's interesting and contradictory with what they said earlier that the program had entered the EMD phase. That said, in the recent article on the B-21's companion UCAV being cancelled, they did affirm they are moving ahead with the Loyal Wingman (men?) for the NGAD.

Wild speculation with no basis: the manned portion has been selected already and entered EMD. The Loyal Wingman/men are in downselect.

I think the companion UCAV for B-21 was never very logical. MUMT for 6th gen is a must. I'm not a fan of XQ-58 or MQ-28.

If I had to guess, maybe they are going into EMD with multiple contractors, because they are desperate to beat China to fielding 6th gen. This might be a new thing they try. It seems just like a waste of money trying to be too aggressive with timing. I do think they can "field" 6th gen by 2030, but it will be with test and evaluation squadrons rather than an active combat squadron. They made a mistake with F-35 by trying to ramp up production quickly. It's like they never learn their lessons and just think they can do it better next time. And now they are slowing down F-35 purchases until block 4 is ready. And that won't fully be ready until 2029.

 

[SlothmanAllen]

I figured I'd put out my wild speculation for the type of aircraft NGAD will be. Given that the most recent statements by the USAF indicate they want to buy 200 aircraft with each aircraft having two loyal wingman I came up with my fantasy NGAD.

I think the fictional NGAD in my mind with be something sized around the F-111/Su-34 and be a two seater. I think a smaller proportion of its weight will go to armament and instead be used for fuel storage. I think the two most important aspects of the aircraft are going to be stealth and range. The smaller weapons storage will be made up by the user of loyal wingman, with one carrying additional sensors and the other carrying extra payload.

That is about as far as I have gotten with my idea. Please feel free to chime in.

 

[sevrent]

I figured I'd put out my wild speculation for the type of aircraft NGAD will be. Given that the most recent statements by the USAF indicate they want to buy 200 aircraft with each aircraft having two loyal wingman I came up with my fantasy NGAD.

I think the fictional NGAD in my mind with be something sized around the F-111/Su-34 and be a two seater. I think a smaller proportion of its weight will go to armament and instead be used for fuel storage. I think the two most important aspects of the aircraft are going to be stealth and range. The smaller weapons storage will be made up by the user of loyal wingman, with one carrying additional sensors and the other carrying extra payload.

That is about as far as I have gotten with my idea. Please feel free to chime in.

That 200 number is not a projected inventory number, it was a number they used for analysis/basing purposes

 

[gelgoog]

The Su-57M is supposed to be generation 5+. Basically a 5th generation with some kind of drone control support and VCE engine.
The Russians are currently designing the PAK DP interceptor which might be 6th generation. But it will likely be a pretty different take on 6th generation.

The NGAD is expected to be long range so the US can do power projection over the Pacific. It is also expected to have lower observables and a lot of people expect it to use TVC engines and have no vertical control surfaces. Also expected to have VCE engine. The main opponent of NGAD is likely going to be the J-20 rather than any Russian fighter.

 

[CMP]

The Su-57M is supposed to be generation 5+. Basically a 5th generation with some kind of drone control support and VCE engine.
The Russians are currently designing the PAK DP interceptor which might be 6th generation. But it will likely be a pretty different take on 6th generation.

The NGAD is expected to be long range so the US can do power projection over the Pacific. It is also expected to have lower observables and a lot of people expect it to use TVC engines and have no vertical control surfaces. Also expected to have VCE engine. The main opponent of NGAD is likely going to be the J-20 rather than any Russian fighter.

Let's hope this time around, China gets its own 6th gen out in equivalent or superior numbers around the same time as its primary threat actor. Some US air force/Pentagon leadership already voiced concerns that China will beat them to the punch on NGAD by a matter of months, but how much of that is just budget jockeying? Hard to say.

 

[SlothmanAllen]

Let's hope this time around, China gets its own 6th gen out in equivalent or superior numbers around the same time as its primary threat actor. Some US air force/Pentagon leadership already voiced concerns that China will beat them to the punch on NGAD by a matter of months, but how much of that is just budget jockeying? Hard to say.

Given that China is ramping up J-20 production, I am skeptical that they would move so quickly to replace it with sixth gen fighter. Maintaining hundreds of J-11, J-16 and J-20s while bringing in a new sixth gen fighter seems extreme. Especially as I imagine that the J-20 has plenty of life left in it.

 

[Michaelsinodef]

Given that China is ramping up J-20 production, I am skeptical that they would move so quickly to replace it with sixth gen fighter. Maintaining hundreds of J-11, J-16 and J-20s while bringing in a new sixth gen fighter seems extreme. Especially as I imagine that the J-20 has plenty of life left in it.

China's 6th gen from our PLAAF 6th gen thread, is basically expected to appear around 2030 +- 1-2 years. As for whether it's gonna be a prototype ala J-20 in 2011 or more like actually starting to get introduced to PLAAF (ala J-20 in ~2017) we still don't know.

With that said, the gap will have closed between US and China in terms of fighter jet generation (10+ year gap between China getting 5th gen vs US, versus likely less than 5 years for 6th gen).

Overall, probably best to stop discussion of a Chinese 6th gen in the US 6th gen fighter thread.

 

[gelgoog]

I am pretty sure they are already developing the technologies for the 6th generation in China as we speak. And much of the learning curve the US experienced with the NGAD prototype phase, China already experienced with the J-35 program, like using rapid prototyping and 3d printing. So once the 6th generation work is started, China is going to go through the paces much quicker than they did in prior programs.