Unmanned Combat Ground Vehicle

tankphobia

Senior Member
Registered Member
I would prefer to face a Chinese dog in battle rather that an American soldier any day of the week. At least one has been programmed with rationalality and a modicum of compassion, the other is programmed only to hate and subjugate and destroy.

At least a dog won’t rape and murder the locals. I suspect you are trolling, so I am out.
I don't know how we went from a technical discussion to a moral one, as you still didn't discuss the tactical value of having a robot dog over what I have supposed, do robot dog bullets hurt less than evil American soldier? In any modern urban warfare situation, leveling buildings with hostiles rather than sending troops in seem to be SOP, so I don't even know what's to contend on that front.
 

dingyibvs

Senior Member
If they're putting them in pop-mil tv shows, it's at best just for PR more than for actual operational use, it's all well and good that they are exploring all the different types of use for it, but I don't see a robot dog EVER being good for weaponized use, a single shot from the gun will destroy any semblance of accuracy due to the non-solid connection to the ground. Tracked and armed UGV could provide a stabilized firing platform, but they can't navigate rough terrain so it would be moot in a urban environment. I have worked in this space before and anything involving a LiDAR is just so expensive that having it as a simple armed drone is a terrible use of the technology. A much better use would be for example CBRN monitoring.
I have a Lidar on my $300 Roborock vacuum lol. I know military grade stuff is much more advanced, but Lidar price has been dropping like a rock. The same lidar that would cost $20k a few years ago can be had for $200 now.

With that said, I do agree that on the battlefield wheeled/tracked platforms are probably gonna be superior for a while. However, over time, I can see legged platform more widely used. They're just more versatile, if that wasn't the case nature would've evolved wheels for animals instead of legs.
 

tankphobia

Senior Member
Registered Member
I have a Lidar on my $300 Roborock vacuum lol. I know military grade stuff is much more advanced, but Lidar price has been dropping like a rock. The same lidar that would cost $20k a few years ago can be had for $200 now.

With that said, I do agree that on the battlefield wheeled/tracked platforms are probably gonna be superior for a while. However, over time, I can see legged platform more widely used. They're just more versatile, if that wasn't the case nature would've evolved wheels for animals instead of legs.
Nah, those 2D plane lidars have always been fairly affordable, of course prices have been dropping due to advances in technology, but I don't think we'll see 3D mapping capable Lidars under $1000 for a while yet, which I'd say is still more expensive than a flying uav with a 40mm grenade strapped to it (with 25minute ish endurance). Again I must stress the point, a robot dog will always be fragile and maintenance heavy due to it's sensor array which must be exposed, what role does it fulfill better than infantry + UAV recon?
 

tygyg1111

Captain
Registered Member
My notion is not outdated, it's just that what you are thinking of is nowhere near the levels used in UGVs like robotic dogs.

What you're proposing requires more than cheap 2-D single line Lidars, requiring vertical movement in the laser emitter/receiver to create 3D imagery, it's a far cry from the relatively simple ones used in electric Cars due to the different operational environment which only requires obstacle detection. There's differences between hobbyist grade and military grade also, something similar (even just as simple) will cost $500+ if expected to last in rugged environments. It's not just the Lidars that is expensive in a robot dog like UGV, you also need a lot of computing due to the amount of data and expensive actuators due to the complex movements it needs to perform.

Like it's not doing anything that a equivalent flying drone can't do for much cheaper, any damage to the sensor system from battle will basically cost more to replace than a suicide UAV anyway so a dog like UGV is extremely difficult to justify in a actual combat situation. Tracked UGVs are fine as fire support/logistics, but having a expensive, low endurance and low survivability armed UGV which is not as flexible as infantry men is questionable to say the least.
I would justify it more in the sense of a robot dog vs a human life - there will be cases where you need to send something into a 'hot' location, better to pop a robot dog around the corner than your own head.

The Geneva conventions is not worth the paper its written on considering recent events. In a might makes right world It only matters who wins. (Eg battle of Fallujah, any day you can pick in the last 4+ months.) Troop preservation pretty much trumps all other concerns in modern urban warfare, you give warning, then level the building.
Would you apply this approach in a Taiwan liberation scenario, bearing in mind the effect a heavy handed approach will have post liberation?
 

Overbom

Brigadier
Registered Member
which must be exposed, what role does it fulfill better than infantry + UAV recon?
Where humans can go, robot dogs should be able to go as well.
And why risk human life when you can send a dozen of robots?

In my opinion these small robots should get bigger in order to be able to operate independently (combat, recon/sensors) without human help. They should be able to go in buildings, mountains, forests, irregular/harsh terrain. Where vehicles can't go, infantry and robots should be able to go

Probably about 10 years until there is sufficient advancement in robotics to accomplish that. In the meantime robot dogs are ok for gaining experience, working on tactics, and aiding the growth of MIC robot companies
 

tankphobia

Senior Member
Registered Member
I would justify it more in the sense of a robot dog vs a human life - there will be cases where you need to send something into a 'hot' location, better to pop a robot dog around the corner than your own head.


Would you apply this approach in a Taiwan liberation scenario, bearing in mind the effect a heavy handed approach will have post liberation?
Yes but using those robotic dogs requires a large 'tail' in terms of supporting troops to repair and maintain them. It would be a waste of resources to sent damaged ones back to the mainland but also a danger to send specialized repair workers onto the coast of Taiwan, there are no good solutions here.

Yes, because the ultimate aim of the war is the occupation of Taiwan. If Russia can conduct what it is doing right now to cities in the Donbass and Luhansk then turn around and become liberators, what is the fundamental difference between it and a Taiwanese reunification scenario in terms of tactics used? Given that transport capability is limited between the mainland and Taiwan, troop/equipment preservation would be a even more important consideration. I don't think we have ever seen urban combat on the scale that would come in that case, 40+ stories of highrises with hundreds of firing positions in a dense urban setting, not really sure what you can do other than level the city. To worry about effects post liberation you need to liberate first, I don't see how a soft handed approach can be afforded in a level of urban combat that has never happened before.
 

tankphobia

Senior Member
Registered Member
Where humans can go, robot dogs should be able to go as well.
And why risk human life when you can send a dozen of robots?

In my opinion these small robots should get bigger in order to be able to operate independently (combat) without human help. They should be able to go in buildings, mountains, forests, irregular/harsh terrain. Where vehicles can't go, infantry and robots should be able to go

Probably about 10 years until there is sufficient advancement in robotics to accomplish that. In the meantime robot dogs are ok for gaining experience, working on tactics, and aiding the growth of MIC robot companies
No, robot dogs can't go everywhere that humans can go, flat grounds and stairs? Sure, but as soon as the terrain gets complicated by debris and obstacles a robot dog would get stuck. If the enemy flipped a dining table in the stairwell, infantry can just climb over or move it out of the way, but there's not much a robot dog can do about it. Also see doors.
 

Overbom

Brigadier
Registered Member
No, robot dogs can't go everywhere that humans can go, flat grounds and stairs? Sure, but as soon as the terrain gets complicated by debris and obstacles a robot dog would get stuck. If the enemy flipped a dining table in the stairwell, infantry can just climb over or move it out of the way, but there's not much a robot dog can do about it. Also see doors.

Read again what I wrote. For the moment robot dogs are ok until R&D catches up with military requirements
In my opinion these small robots should get bigger in order to be able to operate independently (combat)
Probably about 10 years until there is sufficient advancement in robotics to accomplish that. In the meantime robot dogs are ok for gaining experience, working on tactics, and aiding the growth of MIC robot companies
 

tygyg1111

Captain
Registered Member
Yes but using those robotic dogs requires a large 'tail' in terms of supporting troops to repair and maintain them. It would be a waste of resources to sent damaged ones back to the mainland but also a danger to send specialized repair workers onto the coast of Taiwan, there are no good solutions here.

Yes, because the ultimate aim of the war is the occupation of Taiwan. If Russia can conduct what it is doing right now to cities in the Donbass and Luhansk then turn around and become liberators, what is the fundamental difference between it and a Taiwanese reunification scenario in terms of tactics used? Given that transport capability is limited between the mainland and Taiwan, troop/equipment preservation would be a even more important consideration. I don't think we have ever seen urban combat on the scale that would come in that case, 40+ stories of highrises with hundreds of firing positions in a dense urban setting, not really sure what you can do other than level the city. To worry about effects post liberation you need to liberate first, I don't see how a soft handed approach can be afforded in a level of urban combat that has never happened before.
Does anyone know what the cost of a PLA robot dog is?
A Boston Dynamics dog costs ~ $74,000 USD retail, I would assume the Chinese equivalent for military procurement is only a small fraction of that. Given the intended use, I'd imagine they would be reasonably affordable.

So if that is the case, why not use them more as a semi disposable 'decoy' to scout high risk areas or force enemy fire where you don't want to risk a soldier's life. Repair if easily done so, otherwise scrap for useable parts.

I can't really comment from the logistics side, is anyone familiar with the logistics requirements of an existing system of similar complexity?
 
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