Ukrainian War Developments

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Temstar

Brigadier
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EU is pushing China to broker a ceasefire. Encouraged that China abstained from the UN vote instead of putting a veto.
However they are frustrated that China hasn't used the word "invasion" as of now.

I think we might need to pay attention if any "evolution" towards more military-oriented terminology comes from China. China obviously won't call it an invasion, but they might find a middle ground once again.

There is also a remarkable effort to push China to "betray" Russia and take a clear stance against this. Its really unfortunate that EU doesn't have any high quality diplomat to realise why this won't and can't happen
Well I mean, it's kind of tough for the west to make such deals with China when it hasn't even been 2 weeks since the end of the Olympics, one where they tried and failed to organise a boycott. Chinese people have longer memory than that.

In fact, didn't the US sail another destroyer through the Taiwan Strait just a few days ago?
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
Anyone following the war with a keen eye will give Ukraine little chance. However I have no idea what Putin is going to do after 'winning'. Any attempts at occupation or a puppet government will be met with stern resistance considering Ukrainians are now overwhelmingly anti-Russian. Conducting mass genocides will also result in heavier sanctions and opposition in Russia. I'm just not sure any sort of puppet government would hold, it seems extremely unlikely. Whats the exit for Putin?

What makes you think Russia wants to pull out when it is expending so much to get into Ukraine right now?

I would also not fall into the fallacy of taking Reddit/Twitter posting Ukrainians to be wholly representative of all Ukrainians.

While this war will undoubtedly create much bad blood and an insurgency, insurgencies live and die by outside support. Is NATO prepared to risk direct war with Russia to destabilise a conquered Ukraine when it was not willing to do so to keep an independent Ukraine from being conquered in the first place?

You also need to bear in mind that insurgency means refugees and hard to control proliferation of military grade weapons.

Already a million Ukrainian refugees have flooded into the EU. How many millions more will the neighbouring countries who will pick up the lion share of the tab to support them be willing to tolerate just to screw with the Russians before their willingness to allow continued arms to flow into Ukraine across their boarders starts to waiver? Especially in the face of Russian military threats?
 

anzha

Captain
Registered Member
I’m sorry to hear of your family’s losses in this war, but I’m glad that they’re alive and healthy and that you’ve had some relief in all of this.

Thank you. They are alive. We can rebuild their lives so long as they are alive.

I want to make sure everyone here understands, there is a rage building in Ukrainians. I need to get my nephews away bevause they are going to start hearing from the enraged young, dumb and full of, ahem, *cough* That cannot end well.
 

anzha

Captain
Registered Member
If Ukrainians feel backstabbed by Russia invading them in 2014, I wonder how they're going to take the MUCH biggest backstab that I expect is being prepared by NATO.

It will be interesting to see what Ukrainians feel in the end. About NATO that is. I don't think it will be the same. Their view of Russians was quite different than Poles or Americans.
 

gelgoog

Lieutenant General
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Look like they will be pushing way farther than the Dnieper river, getting the south to cut maritime access bu it look like they want both banks of the river, they want to get all hydroelectric plants and control water supply ? I don't see them getting the west without enormous sacrifice. They are getting supply out there.
I think once the East and South get under control the Russian Railway Troops will move in and fix the railways sabotaged by the Ukrainians to move more equipment and supplies in.

Germany sending further military aid to Ukraine, this time in the form of... 9K32 Strela-2 and 9K38 Igla
Europe is sending all its obsolete trash weapons to Ukraine courtesy of the European Union which setup a fund for this.
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They send obsolete weapons to Ukraine, that they would need to pay money to dispose of, and get cash in return. It is a steal really.
The logistics to actually deliver these weapons and their actual suitability for their defense? Not relevant. This "generous" EU support package is covered by the cynically named "European Peace Facility".

The hardest resistance has been on the eastern front against the most experienced Ukrainian soldiers. Very little resistance to zero difficulties around Kiev. The population in the west may be the most anti Russian but the military resistance seems to be lacking, e.g. Chernobyl.
Well the thing is all these years that they rotated troops in and out of Donbass the Ukrainians should have 400k trained personnel they could use. I hear reports the largest pocket in the East has 60K troops. Let us say this is 80-90K deployed. Where is the rest? How much equipment do they have? Are command structures and staff still operational? Should the Russians let them assemble and move so they can engage them as a mass and make the mop up easier? Of course they still have little chance. This is not the XIXth century anymore.

It may also explain why Russia has had unusually high logistical related losses. They expected to overrun the east and fight heavily and slowly towards Kiev, so most of their engineering corps and supplies were deployed on the eastern front.

Instead the exact opposite happened. Slow advances on the east against a dogged army and lightening fast advance to Kiev within 1-2 days.
Uh, I really doubt this. They knew the Ukrainians had their forces arrayed against the Donbass line and the rest was wide open. I say was because I suspect the Ukrainians might be aiming to concentrate resistance in the West close to Polish border and lines of supply from NATO. But... the thing is human losses in the West might be way more palatable to the Russian public than in the East and South. There is next to no Russian ethnic population there. The Russians could just decide to simply flatten the whole thing.

I wonder if it would have been better for the Ukrainian army to have withdrew from the eastern regions and fought from defensive positions somewhere around the Dnieper river. With their current strategy by the Russian army reach the Dnieper, the best Ukrainian soldiers will be dead or captured.
Without air power? No way. Best place for defense in whole country is either inside the cities or in the swamps around Chernobyl. You can forget about the swamps since they already bypassed those. And the Russians have their two largest cities basically encircled.

While this war will undoubtedly create much bad blood and an insurgency, insurgencies live and die by outside support. Is NATO prepared to risk direct war with Russia to destabilise a conquered Ukraine when it was not willing to do so to keep an independent Ukraine from being conquered in the first place?
Oh but they are. Did you watch the YouTube video with Scott Ritter I posted here in this thread? The US supported an insurgency in Ukraine, based around West Ukraine region, since end of WW2 to 1990 when Soviet Union collapsed. With money and weapons. This led to the loss of 20,000 Soviet soldiers and 200,000 Ukrainians. It is the home of the Banderite cult.
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Already a million Ukrainian refugees have flooded into the EU. How many millions more will the neighbouring countries who will pick up the lion share of the tab to support them be willing to tolerate just to screw with the Russians before their willingness to allow continued arms to flow into Ukraine across their boarders starts to waiver? Especially in the face of Russian military threats?
I think six million people left Ukraine after 2014 Euromaidan coup. The largest fractions are either in Poland or Russia. I think one single million this time will just be the start.
 
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enroger

Senior Member
Registered Member
Thank you. I appreciate that. I really appreciate that. I feared the worst.



I am going to say something that will not be popular: Ukraine will have to be utterly crushed to give up. I am sure that will come (91% sure at least). Even then, we will see partisans for years. This will be long, bloody and vicious. As determined as the Russians are, the Ukrainians are just as much.

There is no easy out. There will be no acceptance. This isn't a Disney fairy tale. This is Ukrainian and those almost never have happy endings from my experience.

I could also be wrong. I have been before and will be again.

This is the saddest thing to hear, I hope dearly you're wrong but you know your countrymen better. From an outsider point of view the best thing for Ukraine is to be like Finland, a neutral country with deep economical tie with Europe. How things have evolved like this?

I'm from Hong Kong so I know what radicalized irrationality looks like first hand, I don't know how much of Ukraine's situation is due to foreign interference, how much is due to deep seated racial issue or maybe a bit of both...

Anyway I don't want to talk anymore of this subject lest it go into political territory, just want to get it out of my chest. Wish there is a less shitty end for Ukrainian, sincerely
 

reservior dogs

Junior Member
Registered Member
If there is one thing to learn about Russia from this war is that they sure love their encirclement tactics.

And it seems that they will do the same thing on Odessa
View attachment 84309

These are very effective tactics. Cut off, cities will last days, maybe a couple of weeks. Eventually, the population will have to leave. What remains are the fighters. Now they can use their horrific cannons to finish it off without too much casualties to the civilians, It also allow them to quickly by-pass hard to deal with targets to work on in their own sweet time.
 

supersnoop

Colonel
Registered Member
Europe is sending all its obsolete trash weapons to Ukraine courtesy of the European Union which setup a fund for this.
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

They send obsolete weapons to Ukraine, that they would need to pay money to dispose of, and get cash in return. It is a steal really.
The logistics to actually deliver these weapons and their actual suitability for their defense? Not relevant. This "generous" EU support package is covered by the cynically named "European Peace Facility".
Soviet-made weapons, is this left over stock from DDR?? Is it even functional?
 

Abominable

Major
Registered Member
If there is one thing to learn about Russia from this war is that they love their encirclement tactics.

And it seems that they will do the same thing on Odessa
They learnt from the best. The Mongols.
Well I mean, it's kind of tough for the west to make such deals with China when it hasn't even been 2 weeks since the end of the Olympics, one where they tried and failed to organise a boycott. Chinese people have longer memory than that.

In fact, didn't the US sail another destroyer through the Taiwan Strait just a few days ago?
Their current plan is to pull China into this as much as they can. They've lost all interest in defending the Ukraine. They will continue supplying AT missiles and stingers as Russia appears to tolerate it for now, as well as the continuous TB2 attacks from Poland. But that's it.
Dragging China into this and getting some sort of united European action against China is the only American win I can see left on the table.
 
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