Ukraine Revolt/Civil War News, Reports, Data, etc.

Air Force Brat

Brigadier
Super Moderator
Sorry Sampan, but what you wrote is completely not true. So let's start.
It's not true. If you know Russian well you can talk with a person talking in Ukrainian but you won't be able to understand it 100%. You'll get what he's talking about and vice versa. And it's a common thing between Slavic countries. A Czech person will more or less know what Polish guy will say, Polish guy will have the same thing with a guy talking Slovak language and Russian guy will surely get the point what the Polish guy will say to him but he won't get 100%. That's how it works. Russian language isn't the same as Ukranian and that's why the're called Russian and Ukrainian in the first place. Period.Do you know anyone who lives there? Do you know each one of them? If no then I call this kind of generalisation as propaganda. A pro-Separatist propaganda. Don't talk with big words like 'people of the East Ukraine. You remember how the Separatists started a 'rebel' there? It took 40-50 men who mounted their 'blok-posts' in one 10,000 inhibitants city to claim it. Separatists didn't have to take any of the cities by force. They just claimed and haven't shot a single bullet there. That's how it worked. They didn't have any kind of immense support from people living there. They used propaganda to believe that Ukrainian forces are bad. And it worked. Do you want to know why? Do you remember the tragedy in Odessa when the crowd of right-wing Ukrainians burned people alive? Then the Separatists told the people there that since now it's their territory Ukranians will come there and do the same with them. Would they in reality? No, they wouldn't. Do you remember when the columns of Ukrainian tanks and heavy weaponry started to move there near Donetsk? The Separatists told people - 'you know, that's Ukrainians who started it, we had only Kalashnikovs with us when we came here'. And that's true but told in such a way to scare people living there. Peaceful people who don't want to fight. People who want to get back to their normal life as soon as possible. No matter if it's going to be Ukraine or anything else. They want to go to work, get the paycheck, go fishing or whatever they did earlier. That's all. That's not like all of people there support Separatists. A normal guy living in a home with his family will get upset if Ukrainians/Separatists if they mounted their positions on his posession. He's got wife, kids to care for. He's not interested in any pro-Russian or pro-Ukrainian propaganda. He just wants them to leave. And all that soldiers of both sides will tell him is 'We're really sorry, but right now the frontline is here and we can't do anything about it'... And Separatists forces aren't growing. It's still 20-40k forces as it was earlier.
You know what's the point of Ukrainian forces bombarding Donetsk? It's because of the normal people living there. No matter what one side will tell you that they aren't shooting from the city centers or Ukrainians only responding to the Separatist's fire. That's not true. Both sides fire from the city centers and Ukrainians sometimes just start shooting Grads without Separatists starting first. So let's get back to Donetsk. You can take the city by force. You know, infantry taking quarters of the city after quarter and so on. Ukrainians aren't doing that. That's because they know well that without the support of normal people living there the rebel will end without doubt. So they fire. When they fire they might destroy pipeline or water supply lines. People at first will get mad at Ukrainians. But after some time they will get mad at Separatists because after all, it's all their fault that Ukrainian artilery is firing at the city. That's the tactic they chose and I think that's rally bad thing from Ukrainian side. And that's not doing well for the Ukrainian morale when the only thing they do is sit on their a** without firing a single bullet for a month or so. So they start drinking heavily. On both sides. For days. Starting in the morning untill they go to sleep. It's much more severe on Ukrainian side because they hold the positions for a long time while the other side has to be more mobile but that's a problem there as well.lol, you write the Greece which doesn't want to give back money which they don't have and they don't want to cut all the social privilages because that's how strong years of EU donations got into their heads that they didn't had to work hard? It's not about Mr Putin but about money and Greece trying their to annoy those who paid their bills for years. They're doing that because of their own needs. Not Ukraine or Russia.

Good point Janiz and I would say that Sampan made some good points as well, so much of what we are feeling is about perspective, Eastern, Western, somewhere in the middle of this mess is the truth. Maybe perception is a better word? I will say that Mr. Putin is not some kind of liberator, his objectives are quite clear, these former Soviet Republics have declared their independence, he intends to bring them back into the fold???
 

texx1

Junior Member
The effectiveness of economic sanctions has always been about willingness and capability to last for all participants. Everyone loses in economic sanctions. Sanctions on Russia is going to be a long game for both sides and we are still at a relative mild stage despite some serious damage to Russian economy.

Neither sides has made any drastic/nuclear economic moves when it comes to sanctions. The west hasn't cut Russia off from swift banking system. Russia has not defaulted its loans and obligations to EU and the west. Anybody wants to know what happen last time Russia defaulted can read about the blowup of long term capital management and its resultant blood.

Russia is far from being completely isolated like Iran as long as China and other BRICS countries continue to do business with her. Convincing BRICS to join sanctions is currently very unlikely without some significant economic and geopolitical concessions from EU and US.

Even if Russia was completely isolated like Iran by sanctions, there is no guarantee that Putin would fold or Russian people would overthrow him as policy makers in Washington would like to see. Iran has been under sanctions for decades, no overthrow of government has taken place or any real progress on nuclear issues. In my personal opinion, if history is any judge, Russian people can endure more hardship than any other people certainly more than people in the west. They have endured Germany's attack in WWII, the economic hardship under soviet era and the pillage of its economy after its fall.

In the meaning time, we have a game of economic chickens playing out in backdrop of a great economic recession worldwide. Germany, EU's central core power only narrowly managed to avoid recession with 0.1% growth in the third quarter which can be considered as a margin of error in statistics assuming its statistics are not goal determined right from the beginning. Cross the ocean, US's oil industry, the only industry that is providing good quality jobs in good numbers for Americans are experiencing cutbacks and layoffs. How much longer can US fracking firms so loaded with junk bonds last when oil prices are below many of their production cost?

As for recent developments in Greece, it makes a mockery of the notion that EU is "unanimous" in supporting Russian sanctions since the new Greek government is clearly against sanctions at the expense of its farmers. However, I think Tsipras is playing a double game. Options to receive Russian loans reduces Brussels's leverage over Greece, giving it a strong position to negotiate more favorable terms from EU without worrying about immediate liquidity. However if Tsipras is successful, European central bank's balance sheet would be seriously impaired which would make continuing sanctions more difficult during market upheaval.
 

Janiz

Senior Member
I will say that Mr. Putin is not some kind of liberator, his objectives are quite clear, these former Soviet Republics have declared their independence, he intends to bring them back into the fold???
I'm not writing that Sampan writes things like that all the time. Sometimes he writes something odd for me so I just had to reply.

Brat, I will write now who fights there on Ukrainian side. The first group are Ukraninan nationalists, you know, the famous Banderists. They fight for Ukraine. That's the smallest group but soldiers from this group could fight Poland as well if the war would happen.The second group are those who fear Russia. They fear that after Donbass area will become Russian, they won't stop there. That they will continue to fight, will go for Kiyev and after that for Lviv. They don't want to see that and they fight 'for the peace of the rest of Ukraine'. The third group are those who just are there. They don't want to fight that much.
Many Ukrainians could care less about Donbass not being a part of Ukraine anymore. They don't like how much Ukraine is paying to keep the unprofitable mines running and money from budget wasted on corruption, Donbass oligarchs robbing those money etc. And Kiyev stopping subvensions after Maidan happened played a big part in the starting of conflict there I assume! And there's a second group of Ukranians from central and eastern part of the country who don't ever think about letting Donbass from not being apart from Ukraine.
There isn't a single good way out of this situation for the current government. Any decission could trigger another time bomb waiting for explosion in the near future. There are so many bizarre things happening there all the time that fuel the conspiracy theories which could be true after all (world stands on this ideas after all) that it's not easy for me to write about this stuff here. Those might be true but all would be assumptions for now.
 

pla101prc

Senior Member
I'm not writing that Sampan writes things like that all the time. Sometimes he writes something odd for me so I just had to reply.

Brat, I will write now who fights there on Ukrainian side. The first group are Ukraninan nationalists, you know, the famous Banderists. They fight for Ukraine. That's the smallest group but soldiers from this group could fight Poland as well if the war would happen.The second group are those who fear Russia. They fear that after Donbass area will become Russian, they won't stop there. That they will continue to fight, will go for Kiyev and after that for Lviv. They don't want to see that and they fight 'for the peace of the rest of Ukraine'. The third group are those who just are there. They don't want to fight that much.
Many Ukrainians could care less about Donbass not being a part of Ukraine anymore. They don't like how much Ukraine is paying to keep the unprofitable mines running and money from budget wasted on corruption, Donbass oligarchs robbing those money etc. And Kiyev stopping subvensions after Maidan happened played a big part in the starting of conflict there I assume! And there's a second group of Ukranians from central and eastern part of the country who don't ever think about letting Donbass from not being apart from Ukraine.
There isn't a single good way out of this situation for the current government. Any decission could trigger another time bomb waiting for explosion in the near future. There are so many bizarre things happening there all the time that fuel the conspiracy theories which could be true after all (world stands on this ideas after all) that it's not easy for me to write about this stuff here. Those might be true but all would be assumptions for now.
as a rule the majority of ukrainians don't care that deeply about ukraine, which is why it is being hijacked by the few extremist elements who do.
poroshenko's position in kyiv is now weakening with every defeat he suffers, should he become a victim of ukraine's disastrous military adventurism in donbass, he will likely be replaced by a even more zealous faction. we just don't know if the loss of debaltseve would be this catalyst or something else further down the road.
 

pla101prc

Senior Member
Extremists with guns, my hero. And they know how to use those. Again - just like I wrote last time - it's better not to stick with generalisations.
you can call it generalization but having spent a year and a half in that country, i say i probably didn't miss the mark by too far.
 

delft

Brigadier
From Janiz post above:
It's not true. If you know Russian well you can talk with a person talking in Ukrainian but you won't be able to understand it 100%. You'll get what he's talking about and vice versa. And it's a common thing between Slavic countries. A Czech person will more or less know what Polish guy will say, Polish guy will have the same thing with a guy talking Slovak language and Russian guy will surely get the point what the Polish guy will say to him but he won't get 100%. That's how it works. Russian language isn't the same as Ukranian and that's why the're called Russian and Ukrainian in the first place. Period.
I may have told this before:
When my father first visited the parents of my mother neither my mother nor her mother was able to understand him. He lived some 5 km away in a country that had existed as a polity since about a thousand years ago, Holland. Just a different dialect.
 
... There are so many bizarre things happening there all the time that fuel the conspiracy theories which could be true after all (world stands on this ideas after all) that it's not easy for me to write about this stuff here. Those might be true but all would be assumptions for now.

Janiz common, just tell us (also the Kamikaze story in the new Battleships Thread :)
https://www.sinodefenceforum.com/uss-missouri-bb-63-iowa-class-battleships.t7187/#post-325237)
usually I neither like nor believe what you (and SampanViking :) post, but I admit usually it's an interesting read!
 
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I may have told this before:
...

well, this is the third time I read it from you :) once I kinda triggered this when I said my knowledge of Polish seemed to be more useful in understanding Ukrainian, than my friend's Russian -- I'm Polish-Czech bilingual, he's Russian-Czech bilingual -- and some Finnish member, a languages guy, basically said that this should work this way ... happened this summer, do you recall this, delft?
 

delft

Brigadier
well, this is the third time I read it from you :) once I kinda triggered this when I said my knowledge of Polish seemed to be more useful in understanding Ukrainian, than my friend's Russian -- I'm Polish-Czech bilingual, he's Russian-Czech bilingual -- and some Finnish member, a languages guy, basically said that this should work this way ... happened this summer, do you recall this, delft?
I do.
I also remember being able to understand something of an article in a Polish paper with my extremely limited knowledge of Czech and Russian when in Brno more than forty years ago.
 
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