Ukraine Revolt/Civil War News, Reports, Data, etc.

It's clear Putin will gut Ukraine as a functioning state, because it refuses to be Russia's buffer zone. Good object lesson for Georgia and Moldova, also serves as warning to Latvia, Estonia, and Lithuania to keep on the good side of Russia.

Georgia has already experienced it.

But all three Balkan states are a part of NATO and there is far less likelihood that Putin would attempt something like this there. Same with Poland and the Czech Republic and all of the others that have joined NATO.

Those who haven't that border Russia have already tasted the ire. ie. Ukraine and Goetrgia.

Belarus has stayed within the fold and need not fear such action.

Jeff Head said:

Georgia has already experienced it.

But all three Balkan states are a part of NATO and there is far less likelihood that Putin would attempt something like this there. Same with Poland and the Czech Republic and all of the others that have joined NATO.

Those who haven't that border Russia have already tasted the ire. ie. Ukraine and Goetrgia.

Belarus has stayed within the fold and need not fear such action.

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True the Baltic three are in NATO, but they're weak, have small populations, contain ethnic Russians (Estonia and Latvia are about 25% Russian), and next door to Mother Russia. One wonders if they are or will be "Finlandized."

Blackstone said:

It's clear Putin will gut Ukraine as a functioning state, because it refuses to be Russia's buffer zone. Good object lesson for Georgia and Moldova, also serves as warning to Latvia, Estonia, and Lithuania to keep on the good side of Russia.

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Come on Stoney, you can do better than this bruda, Patriots believe in freedom for those who have been oppressed??? otherwise that flag you fly means what? We have no right to sell our friends short, they wanted out of the Soviet Union, they are members of NATO, there is a reason for that, why don't you ask someone who has been there, like our bruda Jura?

Blackstone said:

True the Baltic three are in NATO, but they're weak, have small populations, contain ethnic Russians (Estonia and Latvia are about 25% Russian), and next door to Mother Russia. One wonders if they are or will be "Finlandized."

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Far too much risk for that.

The US, UK, Poland, France, Germany and others are rotating troops, ships, and aircraft through the Baltics all the time these days precisely to show Putin that it would lead to all of NATO exercising their treaty obligations.

I think the likelihood of any adventurism in the Baltics is very low...at least I sure pray it is.

Air Force Brat said:

Come on Stoney, you can do better than this bruda, Patriots believe in freedom for those who have been oppressed??? otherwise that flag you fly means what? We have no right to sell our friends short, they wanted out of the Soviet Union, they are members of NATO, there is a reason for that, why don't you ask someone who has been there, like our bruda Jura?

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Well my friend AFB, I try and see the world as it is, and not what I wished it to be. The reason I say Latvia, Estonia, and Lithuania are in danger of 'Finlandization,' (meaning a strong country heavily influencing policies of a weak country, while leaving its governance and indepedence untouched) is because Russia is pretty close to that already. Consider two days after Obama visited Estonia to show support, Russia fired smoke canisters at Estonia, sent Special Forces across the broader and kidnapped an Estonia intelligence official. NATO did nothing but protest. Of course one incident doesn't a trend make, but the Baltic Three got the message loud and clear. See the Guardian link below for reference.

Jeff Head said:

Far too much risk for that.

The US, UK, Poland, France, Germany and others are rotating troops, ships, and aircraft through the Baltics all the time these days precisely to show Putin that it would lead to all of NATO exercising their treaty obligations.

I think the likelihood of any adventurism in the Baltics is very low...at least I sure pray it is.

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Russia has already salami sliced a brazen cross-border kidnapping of an Estonian official, in what can technically be called an act of war. So, if a hard limit isn't defined, then some Finlandization of Estonia has already happened.

interesting non-military development since the announcement made yesterday in the evening
(now I'll use a source I don't know, but that's the only information in English I was able to find a moment ago using google -- I didn't want my translation challenged here again and I suppose we'll soon hear about it from main-stream media anyway):

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It sure sounds as a hoax, but it isn't:

• official press-release from
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  can be downloaded at
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• official press-release from
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  is available at
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• "Cassad"
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  while confirming and suggesting it's just formal, sounds really upset, as Separatists' Leadership kept the part about Crimea being the part of Ukraine in their version (as you can check by searching for Крым in their documents I quoted above) EDIT: I just noticed
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  which could be a denial of the Crimean part, though; is from this afternoon

(the current version of the Ukraine Constitution is probably at:

sorry if it isn't)

Jura said:

• I wonder if it had happened the other way around (I know it's hypothetical, of course) I mean if a lowest-echelon Separatist had been captured, seated beside Ukrainian high commander, and reported the number of KIA -- would you have believed it, too?

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Well, rebel soldiers have been captured , Ukrainian side is claiming that they are in fact members of Russian armed forces, but they never claimed they have killed hundreds of rebels . Reason for that is nobody would believe them , UA in conflict so far was mostly inept , unable to capitalize on its higher numbers (both of soldiers and of heavy weaponry ) .
Not that I have particular reason to believe this captured Ukrainian solider , but we had plenty of evidence so far of high Ukrainian loses . When rebels admit they have lost 20-40 KIA , it is highly probable considering pattern of the war so far, to assume that Ukrainian side had even larger losses . Especially considering the fact that even on calmer days they tend to lose lives in incidents like this

Donetsk - At least seven Ukrainian servicemen died on Monday when their truck hit a mine planted by pro-Russian insurgents in the war-torn country's separatist east, a Kiev military spokesperson told AFP.

"The roads in this area are mined by the enemy," Yevgen Silkin said by telephone, adding that the incident occurred about 20km west of the militants' de facto capital Donetsk.

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thunderchief said:

... When rebels admit they have lost 20-40 KIA , it is highly probable considering pattern of the war so far, to assume that Ukrainian side had even larger losses ...

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I put here one more Russian video related to June 3 in Marinka (first I saw it at the hard-core news-server of Separatists voicevas.ru; I think it's no longer there but I found it using yandex.ru):
with journalist's question at 3:14 "You had to retreat?" and the answer, given by a Separatist fighter, "Definitely. To avoid casualties." In the post which triggered this discussion
https://www.sinodefenceforum.com/ukraine-revolt-civil-war.t7103/page-114#post-345012
you suggested hundreds of Ukrainians KIA ... how came Separatists didn't take the village?