UK Military News, Reports, Data, etc.

in other news, just to make everyone else feel better, the contract for the 4 new Afloat Reach and Sustainability tankers (MARS) was signed in Feb 2012 and the order went to a South Korean company Daewoo

which means the £452 milllon contract will go outside the country, and the goverments "advertisment" to create manufacturing jobs in the UK seems like a big joke

UK shipyards had the capacity and capability to make these tankers, MOD has been very short sighted in awarding the contracts to South Korea without giving serious considerations to the British shipyards

no doubt, South Korea has very forbidable shipyards with Hyundai and Daewoo but UK also has very good shipyards is well with very hard working staff

---------- Post added at 04:35 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:33 PM ----------

37,000 ton tanker

The UK's Queen Elizabeth CVF is coming along nicely. This is as of April 3, 2013...picture courtesy of Obi Wan Russell:


Soon they will lift the second, aft island just as soon as the carrier deck is ready for it.

asif iqbal said:

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I am currently building the HMS Kent in 1/350 Scale, F78. These are very good all around frigate, and the eight with the
Sonar 2087 upgrade are among the best in the world, when coupled with a Merlin ASW helo in particular.

Defense Talk said:

HMS Portland has become the final Royal Navy Type 23 frigate to be fitted with Thales UK’s Sonar 2087, a towed array sonar system that enables warships to hunt submarines at considerable distances and locate them beyond the range from which they can launch an attack. Portland has now returned to service, with a re-dedication ceremony on 21st March.

The 12-month multi-million pound refit in Rosyth Royal Dockyard of Portland’s sensors, weapons and systems completes a successful joint programme between industry and the UK’s Ministry of Defence (MOD) to ensure the upgraded ships are now the most advanced of their kind in service.

The Royal Navy has described how the combination of a Type 23 frigate fitted with Thales’s Sonar 2087 and a Merlin helicopter equipped with the Thales FLASH dipping sonar makes the class the “most potent anti-submarine warfare platform of any navy at sea today”.

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Now, these vessels are, as I say, "among the best in the world," but, I would argue with that last statement because I believe a Burke class DDG or Tico Class CG coupled with two ASW outfitted Seahawk can match it tit for tat. I believe the new LCS vessels, when outfitted with their new ASW systems, and coupled with two ASW Sea Hawks will be able to make the same claim.

All three of those vessels can embark two very effective helos and thus provide continuous coverage in the hunt and prosecution of an enemy sub. A Duke class can only carry one helo, so if it is way out on a threat vector with no other Duke class or Daring class nearby, its prosecution of the target will be broken should the Merlin have to RTB to fuel back up, giving the enemy the chance to break contact and escape. That's not the case with a Burke, a Tico, or a LCS.

That said, the Duke class (and hopully the follow on Type 26s will have the same capability) are very, very good and potent frigates, and these eight will be sharks hunting any sub in oprder to protect their task forces...their charges.

Yes I would agree but this is probably meant in the context of FFG only and not DDG and CG

But adding in these features has truly gave them a new lease of life and capabilities, we should never have sold off the three units to Chile and not decommissioned the last few Type 22, they would age given the Royal Navy "critical mass"

The Type 26 numbers should not be 13 but 16, 20 or even 24

asif iqbal said:

Yes I would agree but this is probably meant in the context of FFG only and not DDG and CG

But adding in these features has truly gave them a new lease of life and capabilities, we should never have sold off the three units to Chile and not decommissioned the last few Type 22, they would age given the Royal Navy "critical mass"

The Type 26 numbers should not be 13 but 16, 20 or even 24

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Agree on all counts. It would be nice if all the following had occurred...or would occur:

1) Kept all Duke Class FFGs
2) Kept the Type 22 FFGs
3) Made both new CVF Carriers CATOBAR
4) Built 12 Darings
5) Build 12 Astutues
6) Replace all of the above Type 22s and Type 23s with 20 of the new Type 26s.

Add to that another Ocean and the other two LPDs, along with six of the new AOR vessels, and the Royal Navy would have remained a very modern, very potent World-Wide force.

With those things done, There would have been a Royal Navy force structure of the following :

02 - CVF CATOBAR aircraft Carriers
12 - Type 45, Daring Class DDGs
12 - Astue Class SSNs
20 - Type 26 FFGs
02 - Ocena Class LPHs
02 - LPDs
06 - MARS Class AORs
--------------------
56 Total Major combatants

As it is, with the two STOBAR carriers, only six Darings and seven Astutes, and thirteen Type 26s, it will still be a very modern, very potent force...but only able to operate in one or two AOs at a time. Which leaves the Royal Navy with a future force of:

02 - CVF STOBAR aircraft Carriers
06 - Type 45, Daring Class DDGs
07 - Astue Class SSNs
13 - Type 26 FFGs
01 - Ocena Class LPHs
02 - LPDs
04 - MARS Class AORs
--------------------
35 Total Major combatants

Those 35 means two very respectable simulatanoeus Task Foces and an ability to do their own patrols and exercises for precisely what the UK has as its possessions...barely, with little or no room for error, attrition, or loss, and a tighter mainteance schedule.

With 56 combatatnts they would have been able to field three respectable Task Forces sumltaneously and still cover their existing duties with a decent cushion for error, attrition, or loss, and a very good maintenance schedule.

The sad thing is that your first inventory of 56 probably close to what UK had envisaged, the on going cuts are responsible for the cut down to 35

Back in late 1990s it was forecasted that UK will need 36 fighter aircraft from a aircraft carrier, they would build two of them to keep one operational at all times

Right from the start they should have stated they want cats and traps, this should have been built into the study's rather than just saying they want a carrier

Then in 2010 they stated they wanted cats and traps but it was too late for the first carrier to have them so they decided that the second one will have cats and traps while the first one will stick to ski jumps

Then in 2012 they switched back to ski jump and dropped the cats and traps for the second carrier due to over budget and delays, the whole thing cost $100 million in redesign and extra studies!!! I mean what the ????

So now we get two carriers with ski jumps rather than 1 with ski jump and 1 with cats and traps

If I was on the committee I'd make certain right from the start that a 65,000 ton carrier must be equipped with cats and traps, I mean we didnt even have to develop the EMALS we were going to get it from the Americans anyway!!!

Then we planned 12 Type 45 before they were cut to 6, we planned 6 MARS tankers and we got 4, that too went to South Korea

Regarding Astute Class I think that is pretty good deal, it's 1:1 replacement of the Trafalgar Class SSN and we have 4 Vanguard Class SSBN, so that's 7 SSN and 4 SSBN total is 11 nuclear submarines, one more than France!

There's always one East of Suez providing Tomahawks for the coalition forces and one on patrol elsewhere so 7 SSN I think is fine, so I would say

02 - CVF aircraft Carriers, 1 Catobar and 1 Stobar
12 - Type 45, Daring Class DDGs
07 - Astue Class SSNs
17 - Type 26 FFGs (13 to replace Type 23 and 4 to replace the Batch III Type 22)
01 - Ocena Class LPHs
02 - LPDs
06 - MARS Class AORs
--------------------

total 47 units somewhere in between your two inventory, that is certainly do able, more than do able it was planned

But our corrupt, uneducated, backward minded people in power have basically screwed over the navy, not cool

asif iqbal said:

The sad thing is that your first inventory of 56 probably close to what UK had envisaged, the on going cuts are responsible for the cut down to 35

...we planned 12 Type 45 before they were cut to 6, we planned 6 MARS tankers and we got 4, that too went to South Korea

Regarding Astute Class I think that is pretty good deal, it's 1:1 replacement of the Trafalgar Class SSN and we have 4 Vanguard Class SSBN, so that's 7 SSN and 4 SSBN total is 11 nuclear submarines, one more than France!

There's always one East of Suez providing Tomahawks for the coalition forces and one on patrol elsewhere so 7 SSN I think is fine, so I would say

02 - CVF aircraft Carriers, 1 Catobar and 1 Stobar
12 - Type 45, Daring Class DDGs
07 - Astue Class SSNs
17 - Type 26 FFGs (13 to replace Type 23 and 4 to replace the Batch III Type 22)
01 - Ocena Class LPHs
02 - LPDs
06 - MARS Class AORs
--------------------

total 47 units somewhere in between your two inventory, that is certainly do able, more than do able it was planned

But our corrupt, uneducated, backward minded people in power have basically screwed over the navy, not cool

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Well, seven SSNs, IMHO, given the maintenance schedules, is simply not enough for escort duties and patrol duties necessary world wide.

You need one down around the Falklands off Argentina for the forseeable future.

You need two available at any time for carrier or amphibious escort.

You need one stationed near the middle east.

So that's four right there.

Then you have normal partol duties for the UK and northern atlantic and any other critical areas for the UKs poseessions and interests. But with the first four, you only have one available at any time to do all of that because of maintenance schedules.

12 would be, like the Darings, a more realistic number for world-wide duties IMHO, and allow a buffer to cover emergencies and surge requirements.

Anyhow, however many there are, the Darings and Astutes are world-class platforms!

A nice little story

asif iqbal said:

A nice little story

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It was actually a US Navy SEAL in camo doing an exercise to see how long they would allow him aboard! LOL!