U.S. military says copter down in Iraq

aquauant

Junior Member
I may be a bit off topic here. Actually Iran is a stronger case than Iraq in advocating military strike.

But fighting 3 wars (Afghanistan, Iraq and Iran) at the same time with the current public support and do them without military draft will be a bit of a stretch even for US military.
 

The_Zergling

Junior Member
I may be a bit off topic here. Actually Iran is a stronger case than Iraq in advocating military strike.

But fighting 3 wars (Afghanistan, Iraq and Iran) at the same time with the current public support and do them without military draft will be a bit of a stretch even for US military.

What sort of case is there, and under whose rules would that be permissible, logical, or moral?
 

aquauant

Junior Member
:eek:ff The case of Darwinism - survival of the fitest.

I wish the world is based on rules and law that all people respect and are bind by. As far as I check the news today, it still isn't. No rule, no moral and no law that can apply to nations, last time I check.

Perhaps, you say history will be the judge. Unfortunately, history is written by the victors. When does it saythe good side always win? And in long run we all be dead anyway even if you believe history righting itself eventually. Who remembers what tribe did what to its neighbor 8000 years ago?

The simple fact that we are here talking about Chinese military is a good indication that in this world it is better to carry a big stick. And who will stop those with big sticks? Answer: The ones with bigger sticks.

That's the way it is and that's the way it will be. :coffee:
 

crazyinsane105

Junior Member
VIP Professional
There are reports saying that a seventh US helicopter has been shot down. This time it was a US Apache. Right now the US military is checking into this. Anybody have a news story? I checked Reuters, but they took off the story. What does that mean?
 

BLUEJACKET

Banned Idiot
Yes, it's true-
U.S. Apache Shot Down in Baghdad
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I don't know if this the most recent footage-
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Dump the Apache helicopter. - By Fred Kaplan - Slate Magazine
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Copter Crashes Suggest Shift in Iraqi Tactics - New York Times
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The flurry of aerial destruction indicates that the insurgents have attained a new tactical plateau and may be using more advanced weapons systems to target the US occupation. Analysts are asking whether the insurgents are suddenly accessing greater numbers of man-portable air-defense systems (MANPADS) and from where. These shoulder-launched surface-to-air missiles typically use infra-red guidance and can
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low-flying aircraft and helicopters.

"There is no question that advanced MANPADS are being used against US helos and that holding back on this strategy was intentional, so that the ramp-up would do the most damage to morale," said Don Weadon, a Washington-based international lawyer and Middle East authority. "It is a battle of wills, and against superior firepower one has to be cagey to the max."

The US military ordered changes in flight operations early last week but it was not enough to avoid the downing of a fifth helicopter on Wednesday. The crashes began on January 20 and follow insurgent claims that they have received new stocks of anti-aircraft weapons and a recent boast by Sunni militants that "God has granted new ways" to threaten US aircraft, according to the Associated Press.

"There's been an ongoing effort since we've been here to target our helicopters," said Major-General William Caldwell, the US chief military spokesman. "Based on what we have seen, we're already making adjustments in our tactics and techniques and procedures as to how we deploy our helicopters."

In the past, defensive measures have included flying lower and faster, varying routes and using zigzag patterns when traversing dangerous areas. US helicopters in Iraq are also armed with defensive aid suites (DAS), anti-missile systems such as flares and anti-heat-seeking devices.

The most basic DAS system includes a laser-warning detector and multi-spectral smoke and counter-fire as countermeasures. "DAS are only of use against guided weapons," said Spencer. "There's almost nothing that can counter a bullet in a soft spot, nor an RPG-7 fired at an airframe." RPG-7 is a handheld grenade launcher.

In December, Khudair al-Murshidi, a spokesman for Iraq's Ba'ath Party, announced that Sunni insurgents had received shoulder-fired anti-aircraft missiles, adding that "we are going to surprise them", in a reference to US forces.

Four of the helicopters crashed in Sunni areas, with another shot down during fighting between the US and Iraqi armies and cultists in the Shi'ite stronghold city of Najaf in southern Iraq.

"Until more is known about these apparent shootdowns, one cannot rule out a very old method," said Wayne White, a veteran State Department intelligence analyst, "a group of shooters with systems like the RPG-7, originally designed for use against various armored vehicles on the ground, fired simultaneously or in rapid succession at a helicopter at relatively low altitude, increasing the chances for a lucky hit."

This theory certainly appears to be borne out by witnesses. On January 28, a Reuters reporter witnessed the downing of the helicopter in Najaf. He described how a burst of machine-gun fire produced a trail of smoke from the helicopter before it crashed.

At the site of the most recent crash, Iraqi farmer Mohammad al-Jenabi described how the twin-rotor C-46 troop carrier came down. "The helicopter was flying and passed over us, then we heard the firing of a missile," he said. "The helicopter then turned into a ball of fire. It flew in a circle twice, then it went down."

The helicopter went down near the Sunni insurgent stronghold of Taji, about 30 kilometers northwest of Baghdad. Responsibility was claimed by the Islamic State of Iraq, an umbrella group of insurgents that includes al-Qaeda in Iraq.

"It's not that difficult to shoot down a chopper with small-arms fire," said a British officer serving in the Middle East, "especially if you take into account that the birds are slow and even a car driven fast can outpace them."

Insurgents have used SA-7s, a widely used shoulder-fired missile with an infra-red homing device, against US and British aircraft since 2003. But accusations that Iran is supplying this hardware are either false or irrelevant, according to Western analysts.

"Whether ... they're coming in from Iran - where the technology isn't that good - is not the case," said Weadon, the Middle East expert. "The MANPADS can either be leftovers in Afghanistan or of Chinese or Russian manufacture rolling in over from Saudi or even Turkey. I doubt that anyone would risk rolling them in over the highly scrutinized border with Iran."

Whatever their provenance may be, the introduction of advanced MANPADS into Iraq presents an unsettling echo from a previous occupation and a telling indication of where the current conflict may be headed. In 1980s Afghanistan, the invading Soviet army was similarly incapable of establishing its authority outside Kabul, forcing it to rely on its air force for transport.

Washington took advantage of this and supplied its mujahideen allies with US-made FIM-92 Stinger anti-aircraft missile systems with which to target its Cold War enemy. The mujahideen yielded the Stingers with unnerving accuracy and vastly increased Soviet losses. It was the single development that contributed the most to the Soviet withdrawal from Afghanistan.

U.S.: Crashed copter was shot down in Iraq
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BLUEJACKET

Banned Idiot
Could those helos be shot down with now
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?
The .50-caliber round is powerful enough to punch through not only the Enhanced Small Arms Protective Inserts (E-SAPI) -- the armored plates worn by U.S. troops -- but also much of the light armor of U.S. vehicles. Iran also appears to have supplied armor-piercing incendiary rounds, which are even more destructive once they get inside the cramped compartments of vehicles. The armor-piercing incendiary rounds would also wreak havoc with a low-flying helicopter if it could actually be struck in-flight.
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Related-
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The Cubans also have
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- designed for use against helicopters. I'm sure they tested it on real helos before fielding them. Having those insead of more expensive missiles negates all IR countermeasures!
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RedMercury

Junior Member
Could those helos be shot down with now
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?
<snip>

You hardly need a dedicated anti-material sniper rifle to do what a simple 12.7mm HMG could do, and do better by virtue of its rate of fire. And compared to a precision firearm like the Steyr HS, 12.7mm HMGs are cheap and relatively plentiful. Perhaps more importantly is the availability of good armor piercing ammunition, since Apaches are supposedly rated against 23mm cannon fire.
 

BLUEJACKET

Banned Idiot
True, but if the pilots and gunners can be killed easier through the windshield and/or vital systems damaged than Steyr HS.50 is in this business too!

Planning Seen in Iraqi Attacks on U.S. Copters
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crazyinsane105

Junior Member
VIP Professional
A Black Hawk helicopter was shot down today near Baghdad. I think that would be the eighth helicopter in four weeks.
 

isthvan

Tailgunner
VIP Professional
I know that this comes from Strategypage but since it is related to this subject:

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Mobile Helicopter Killers Found and Destroyed in Iraq
March 19, 2007: American troops in Iraq figured out how Iraqi terrorists had managed to ambush American helicopters with heavy machine-guns and get away with it. The Iraqis had used trucks with the machine-gun mounted in the back, and a tarp over metal supports (a common feature of military trucks) to conceal the weapon. The tarp was rigged so it could be quickly pulled aside, as well as the metal supports for the tarp. This enabled the heavy machine-gun to immediately open fire. There were four of these trucks, and they roamed around areas that American helicopters were operating above. One of these trucks was spotted, with its machine-gun revealed, by a UAV, after informants indicated that this was probably the weapon responsible. U.S. intelligence then analyzed video and other data they had, and put more UAVs over areas believed frequented by the trucks. On the ground, intelligence operatives began beating the bushes for information on these mobile flak traps. Soon the four trucks were identified and, one by one, destroyed with smart bombs.

Vehicles like this are particularly popular in Africa, where they are called "technicals" (and the heavy machine-guns are used mainly against ground targets.) The Iraqi innovation was the hide the machine-gun, until it had to be used against a passing helicopter. The Iraqis came up with this concept because, in the past, when heavy machine-guns were used against aircraft, U.S. aircraft and ground troops were usually all over the area before the 14.5mm heavy machine-gun could be moved or hidden. These machine-guns weigh several hundred pounds, and even when disassembled, the lightest component weighs 176 pounds. It took four years for an Iraqi to realize that heavy machine-gun would only work against the American helicopters if the weapons were mobile, and not easily identified. But that will be difficult now, as the Americans know what to look for, and the word is out in Sunni Arab areas (where the Iraqi "technicals" operated, so reduce the chances of an informer turning them in), that there is a reward for anyone providing information on additional systems like this.

Eight helicopters have crashed in Iraq since January, most from heavy (14.5mm) machine-gun fire. In some of those cases, the hostile fire appeared to be carefully planned. That is, multiple machine-guns, including at least one heavy machine-gun were placed along a route used by helicopters, and fired in a coordinated matter. This tactic is called "flak trap," and dates back to World War II (or earlier). This tactic works if you can use surprise, and the concealed, truck mounted, heavy machine-guns did that.
 
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