Type 076 LHD/LHA discussion

GiantPanda

Junior Member
Registered Member
Based on the current observation, angled deck on the 076 LHD looks to be rather unlikely.

In the meantime, the J-35 is essentially a twin-engine medium-weight 5th-gen carrier-based fighter. If measures have to be taken by reducing the payload and fuel capacities just so that the J-35 can be launched using the shorter catapults on the 076 LHDs - The weight savings will very likely come at huge costs to the required performance of the J-35, such that the PLAN might as well resort to using UCAVs for executing the same missions.

Besides, the PLAN LHDs are only expected to operate mostly within 1000 kilometers of the home shores, as China is not expected to conduct amphibious assault operations anywhere beyond the 1IC for the foreseeable future. That also means any amphibious assault operations conducted by the PLAN can be supported and covered under the readily-available umbrella of the PLAAF and PLANAF warplanes from land bases on the homeland, hence the need for PLAN LHDs to field fighters for interception will be less pronounced than their USMC counterparts.

Actually, the overhangs admid ship and the removal of the large rear elevator (present in the 075) actually do give at least the possibility of an angled deck. Without those no one would even suggest it.

March:
IMG_3025.jpeg

April:
IMG_3024.jpeg

The overhangs are different from every other LHD/LHA including the fighter capable America class. The flight deck is not installed yet. But it will be wider than the width of the hull. This is something that is more in common with the construction of full fledged carriers.
 
Last edited:

GiantPanda

Junior Member
Registered Member

The JL-10J will reduce the wear and tear on frontline aircraft as the carrier program matures.

Over time, the syllabus would change from J-15 at every stage from land to sea to JL-10J on beginners courses on land to the initial stages on STOBAR and CATOBAR. Only by final certification do we fly J-15s and J-35s (along with KJ-600s and the inevitable CODs which will need a turboprop trainer.)

If China is building its own alligator carrier force based on an EM catapult and smaller 076 hulls then the syllabus for those being trained here will include courses for the JL-10J on the 076.

All conjecture of course. These are exciting times!
 

ACuriousPLAFan

Brigadier
Registered Member
Actually, the overhangs admid ship and the removal of the large rear elevator (present in the 075) actually do give at least the possibility of an angled deck. Without those no one would even suggest it.

March:
View attachment 128642

April:
View attachment 128643

The overhangs are different from every other LHD/LHA including the fighter capable America class. The flight deck is not installed yet. But it will be wider than the width of the hull. This is something that is more in common with the construction of full fledged carriers.

The collection of academic papers on the LHD so far seem to suggest otherwise, but we shall wait and see.

0074AOvDly1howymda4s3j30u50u00vb.jpg

The JL-10J will reduce the wear and tear on frontline aircraft as the carrier program matures.

Over time, the syllabus would change from J-15 at every stage from land to sea to JL-10J on beginners courses on land to the initial stages on STOBAR and CATOBAR. Only by final certification do we fly J-15s and J-35s (along with KJ-600s and the inevitable CODs which will need a turboprop trainer.)

If China is building its own alligator carrier force based on an EM catapult and smaller 076 hulls then the syllabus for those being trained here will include courses for the JL-10J on the 076.

All conjecture of course. These are exciting times!

Honestly, what's with the obsession of trying to make the JL-10J into carrier-based frontline fighters anyway - Or more specifically, trying to lob them onto the flight decks of the 076 LHDs anyway?

Look, I'm not against the JL-10 having a carrier-based variant, which can be used for training of naval aviators onboard CVs. But CVs and LHDs, by nature, have fundamentally different roles to one another, such that trying to impose one key functionalities to the other incurs significant downsides, which would make having such move being not worth it.

Unless the opposing force is some fourth-rate air force with only a handful or two of light-weight fighters, and with little to no SAM systems to speak of - Trying to send a handful of light-weight fighters (of which the JL-10 is in the category) against opponents that even have a somewhat respectable prowess to speak of (let alone those more powerful ones) will only result in a major waste of precious lives and equipment, and with negligible gain to speak of.

China isn't exactly as lacking in the fighter department as their neighbors to the south and southwest, such that they would have to fall back to light-weight fighters to conduct their frontline duties. That's why the PLAAF operates zero JF-17s, but hundreds of J-10s (which is a medium-weight fighter BTW) as their lightest modern fighter model in the entire fleet.

Besides, just as mentioned above - Unless things go catastrophically south for the PLA during wartime (of which the situations that enable such operations would no longer exist), any amphibious assault operations within the 1IC (bar the southern edges of the SCS) will not suffer from the lack of aerial support and cover by the PLAAF and PLANAF launched from bases on the mainland to such a degree that an organic fighter airwing is required for each of the PLAN LHDs. There's also the PLAN with their 2 (soon to be 3) CVs, which too can provide aerial support and cover for the LHDs and their amphibious task forces with carrier-based fighter airwings.
 
Last edited:

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
If the information available so far is accurate, the catapults slated for the 076 LHD are expected to be only 40 meters long at most. In fact, those catapults could be the shortest ever designed and made, up to this point.

In the meantime, the Rafale-M of the French Navy, with an MTOW of ~24.5 tons, requires a 75 meter-long C-13-3 catapult to be launched from the Charles de Gaulle - And that's with a higher G-force (4-5 G's) compared to the F/A-18s and F-35Cs when being launched from American CATOBAR supercarriers with longer catapults (C-13-1/2 at 93/94 meters long with 3-4 G's).

Imagine how much the acceleration is required (and thus, the resulting G-force) to push the J-35 (which has an MTOW in the high-20s of tons, if not in the low 30s of tons) into takeoff speed using a much shorter catapult.


I severely doubt they have developed 2 different catapults with 2 different power ratings.

The simplest, cheapest and most reliable solution is to take the existing carrier catapult and shorten it. So it can handle the frame power, but how much power is supplied to a Type-076 catapult is another question.

But more important is that a shorter catapult results in a lower takeoff speed for a given weight and acceleration.
 
  • Like
Reactions: jwt

Andy1974

Senior Member
Registered Member
Please pardon a speculative question… what do you think about the possibility of they Type 076 launching cruise missiles from it’s catapults?

If the catapults can launch a 10-ton drone, they can probably launch a cruise missile weighing 2.5 tons to quite a fast speed. Once it has cleared the deck, maybe it could ignite motors/engines that would otherwise not be possible to use from a carrier deck because of the danger of FOD to engine intakes etc.
 

lcloo

Captain
Please pardon a speculative question… what do you think about the possibility of they Type 076 launching cruise missiles from it’s catapults?

If the catapults can launch a 10-ton drone, they can probably launch a cruise missile weighing 2.5 tons to quite a fast speed. Once it has cleared the deck, maybe it could ignite motors/engines that would otherwise not be possible to use from a carrier deck because of the danger of FOD to engine intakes etc.
Isn't that is what a cold launch VLS is doing? Throw a missile into the mid air by compressed air and ignite the missile at a height safely away from the ship's deck. And VLS can launch one missile after another in time interval of just a few seconds. A catapult will need several minutes preparation interval to launch the missiles.

And it is not outeageous to design shipping containers as one time use only missile launchers, and put them on the top deck of the amphibious assault ship, and throw them into the sea after all missiles are launched.

OK, I am just kidding. My point is why make thing more complicated in using the catapult as a missile launchers? There are easier ways to launch cruise missiles on other navy ships. Just let type 076 do what it is designed to do, i.e. an amphibious assault drone support ship. Other destroyers and frigates can do the missile launchings.

By the way, type 076 is not a light aircraft carrier or a jeep aircraft carrier. If I have the authority, I would give it a ship class designation as LHDA - Landing Helicopter Drone Assault.
 
Last edited:

GiantPanda

Junior Member
Registered Member
Please pardon a speculative question… what do you think about the possibility of they Type 076 launching cruise missiles from it’s catapults?

If the catapults can launch a 10-ton drone, they can probably launch a cruise missile weighing 2.5 tons to quite a fast speed. Once it has cleared the deck, maybe it could ignite motors/engines that would otherwise not be possible to use from a carrier deck because of the danger of FOD to engine intakes etc.

You can use rocket-powered booster stage for missiles. That is a well-tried and true system. Just trying to position a missile on a level catapult intended for fixed-wing aircraft makes the idea completely infeasible.

Now a purpose-built rail-gun with a magazine or loader for missiles and other ordinance would be another matter.
 

ACuriousPLAFan

Brigadier
Registered Member
Please pardon a speculative question… what do you think about the possibility of they Type 076 launching cruise missiles from it’s catapults?

If the catapults can launch a 10-ton drone, they can probably launch a cruise missile weighing 2.5 tons to quite a fast speed. Once it has cleared the deck, maybe it could ignite motors/engines that would otherwise not be possible to use from a carrier deck because of the danger of FOD to engine intakes etc.

Why would you even need to use the EMCATs to launch missiles?

The Russian Navy's P-700 Granit, which actually weighs an astonishing 7 tons, can be launched from certain VLS cell model(s) of the Kirov-class battlecruisers just fine. A 2.5-ton missile is actually much lighter (and also smaller) than the P-700.

A closer comparison would be the P-800 Oniks, which weighs around 3 tons, and is still perfectly capable of being launched from the normal VLS cells of Russian FFGs.

In the meantime, it has been rumored that the YJ-21 weighs somewhere between 2 and 4 tons.

Besides, you'd be launching the missile horizontally with the EMCAT instead of vertically - Which will introduce a whole lot of other new problems WRT how the missile should perform during and after being catapulted. All these problems wouldn't exist if the missile is launched the normal way, i.e. using VLS in the first place.

And I'm willing to bet that in any wartime situations, the chances of losing the EMCATs on a flat-deck to wartime damages is much, much higher than losing ALL of the VLS cells of surface warships that is escorting the flat-deck in the task force. So there's that.
 
Last edited:

sr338

New Member
Registered Member
Please pardon a speculative question… what do you think about the possibility of they Type 076 launching cruise missiles from it’s catapults?

If the catapults can launch a 10-ton drone, they can probably launch a cruise missile weighing 2.5 tons to quite a fast speed. Once it has cleared the deck, maybe it could ignite motors/engines that would otherwise not be possible to use from a carrier deck because of the danger of FOD to engine intakes etc.
It's simpler to have EM VLS instead. Why take deck space if VLS can already do the job.
A EM UVLS will allow the missile to be longer and potentially allow the VLS to be deeper as well. the current UVLS has to botential to go 11-12m if you launch the missile using EM tech
 
Top