Turkey Military News, Reports, Data, etc.

Mohsin77 said:

Let's take the domestic engine off the table, that's not even a question (there's no way Turkey will produce an engine in a decade, period.) As I said, if they can source an engine (the US is not the only solution), then I think the TFX is still in the game.

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Yes, if ... and that if is connected to several ??? Which engine could be an option?

Off the shelf for a fighter in that class it could only be the F100 or F110 and if the US deny this, it's over from the Western side ... all European ones are smaller and less powerful, so they need either a redesign (takes times and costs money), which delays the fighter. Even more the way how Turkey or shall I say its president against several European countries like France, Germany I see no option for the EJ200 nor the M88 ... and so only a Russian or Chinese design could fit in that class but this would make the rift between NATO and Turkey even wider.

IMO there si simply NO chance for this project to succeed as long as there is not a dramatic reduction in Turkey's attitude!

Well, I definitely don't want any reduction in Turkey's "attitude" towards NATO lolz. I'm hoping they leave NATO entirely. And yes, a Russian or Chinese motor for the TFX is an option. It shouldn't be ruled out at least.

Mohsin77 said:

Well, I definitely don't want any reduction in Turkey's "attitude" towards NATO lolz. I'm hoping they leave NATO entirely. And yes, a Russian or Chinese motor for the TFX is an option. It shouldn't be ruled out at least.

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But without going too much into politics, this would have even wider consequences for them. I'm sure the US will immediately reduce and finally cut the spare supplies to any of the US types including the F-16. And then ??? I don't think that Turkey can stand alone nor that Russia can replace anything at least not anytime soon.

Deino said:

I'm sure the US will immediately reduce and finally cut the spare supplies to any of the US types including the F-16.

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If you wanna make an omelet, you gotta break some eggs. We managed survive that exact same consequence, and our position was much weaker than Turkey. It's not even an existential choice for Turkey, it's not facing a mortal enemy 5 times its size on its border. Besides, I doubt it will face sanctions as hard as we did, it's strategic position is too important. The US will be cautious or it may end up backfiring.

Deino said:

And then ??? I don't think that Turkey can stand alone

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Turkey will never be "alone", and I don't just mean moral support from Pakistan. For such a geostrategically placed country, it will easily earn the cooperation of China and Russia if it actually decides to walk away from NATO. Besides, the fear of being alone should not stop it from doing the right thing.

Getting back to the TFX, I don't think sourcing an engine from Russia or China necessitates that dramatic an outcome. It doesn't require Turkey to leave NATO. All I'm saying is, it's too early to write the TFX off.

We can see this in the Turkish drones already. With the Canadians sanctioning Turks so they can't purchase cameras for the drones anymore. I'm sure they could source something elsewhere, but this will cause problems for their logistics chain and in the meantime, which might be years, they might lose that capability.

The US with CAATSA aims to gut Russian exports which the Russians use to gain hard currency abroad. If the Turks buy military engines from Russia they'll just be sanctioned again. While I doubt the US would cut maintenance for a NATO member I wouldn't be surprised if they reduced their ability to replenish weapon stocks or simply not allowed them to purchase certain kinds of weapons.

I don't think the Turks have any regional enemies worth considering at the moment and geography alone makes any attacks on Turkey pretty damn hard in the first place. Still.

Mohsin77 said:

If you wanna make an omelet, you gotta break some eggs. We managed survive that exact same consequence, and our position was much weaker than Turkey. It's not even an existential choice for Turkey, it's not facing a mortal enemy 5 times its size on its border. Besides, I doubt it will face harsh sanctions or anything, it's strategic position is too important. The US will be cautious or it may end up backfiring.


Turkey will never be "alone", and I don't just mean moral support from Pakistan. For such a geostrategically placed country, it will easily earn the cooperation of China and Russia if it actually decides to walk away from NATO. Besides, the fear of being alone should not stop it from doing the right thing.

Getting back to the TFX, I don't think sourcing an engine from Russia or China necessitates that dramatic an outcome. It doesn't require Turkey to leave NATO. All I'm saying is, it's too early to write the TFX off.

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and @Deino

Turks seem to feel confident that the engine question can be resolved either way - imported or self developed or reverse engineered from suitable sources. Time will tell.

I think the engine issue will not prove to be the most formidable challenge even if self development is the path (contractors and suppliers for manufacturing can be done I believe they want RR to become partners?). The less obvious qualities of a fighter - FCS, electronic, sensors, avionics, integration etc, are probably much harder to develop with minimal if any reliance on purchased solutions. If the manufacturing of certain engine components that can't be immediately done, can be outsourced to partners. Here, there is no political reason why it is impossible for western or eastern partnerships to materialise.

TFX capabilities will not become obvious until well after service but whether it reaches service is more a matter of determination - seeing tangible and intangible value in completing a domestic flagship fighter program. And since the determination seems to be all there, I don't doubt it's something that they will complete unless inconquerable technical difficulties arise. It just may or may not be as truly competitive as surface glances may suggest. People have long doubted J-20 in such a way simply because indoctrination of the idea that the Chinaman can't think and create is so deeply buried into the psyche of the western world. The more competent thinkers may choose to doubt the J-20 based on better reasons - China's seemingly lack of sophisticated aviation MIC but those who devote to details may have seen through that myth as well if they were careful enough.

ougoah said:

I think the engine issue will not prove to be the most formidable challenge even if self development is the path. The less obvious qualities of a fighter - FCS, electronic, sensors, avionics, integration etc, are probably much harder to develop with minimal if any reliance on purchased solutions.

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Well, developing the engine actually is (by far) the most difficult challenge. Even the reliable manufacturing of turbine blades alone is a bigger challenge then anything else. If there are any material science or industrial engineers here, they can give details, but just think of the tolerances involved. Even China is still not completely there yet in this one area. So that's the one thing Turkey won't be able to develop for the TFX... but if they start laying the foundation now, maybe for 'TFX-2' the sequel, sometime in 2050s, they can build one.

ougoah said:

And since the determination seems to be all there, I don't doubt it's something that they will complete unless inconquerable technical difficulties arise.

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I hope so. I'm cheering for Turkey.

ougoah said:

People have long doubted J-20 in such a way simply because indoctrination of the idea that the Chinaman can't think and create is so deeply buried into the psyche of the western world.

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I still remember back in early 2000s, the skepticism about how the J-20 would be a failure. Granted, China can't be compared to Turkey, but still. The idea of writing the TFX off this early in the game seems unwarranted in my opinion.

Don't get me wrong, and even if I'm indeed highly critical on this project, I agree that we should wait ... all I say is, it is impossible and that is IMO a given fact like the water is wet - that they will never reach the self-proclaimed dates like roll out in 2023, end of flight testing in 2028/29 and especially not FOC on 2031/32, as long as they stick to their dream to have an own fifth generation engine ready in 2028.

Deino said:

they will never reach the self-proclaimed dates like roll out in 2023

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On that, we can agree. That timeline is just not achievable.

I am Turkish and what you heard here may be wrong. If you have problems you can ask