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sequ

Major
Registered Member
and/or with TAI for the Kaan
I could give you the benefit of doubt regarding corruption in the other cases but not in the case of Kaan. Kaan is wanted by the highest level, President Prabowo himself wants it (and other Turkish systems). No possibility for an acquisition officer to force such a large project onto the President himself for self-enrichment.

There's no good reason for the US to authorize the export of F110 turbofans with Indonesia as the end user when the US wants to sell a F-15EX derivative powered by F-110 turbofans to the Indonesians.
Same could be said of the KF-21 with F414 engines...

This deal is not going to progress very far until the Kaan's domestic turbofan program matures, and by that point, assuming it even happens, the Indonesians may be too invested elsewhere to circle back.
Anything could happen but you have to break an egg to eat an omelet.
 

zyklon

Junior Member
Registered Member
I could give you the benefit of doubt regarding corruption in the other cases but not in the case of Kaan. Kaan is wanted by the highest level, President Prabowo himself wants it (and other Turkish systems). No possibility for an acquisition officer to force such a large project onto the President himself for self-enrichment.

President Prabowo Subianto may not be personally interested in self-enrichment at this point in his career, but if he is unwilling to let his proteges, allies and loyalists who now occupy key post beneath him enrich themselves – as their predecessors did and as he permitted them to do so in his previous capacity as the Indonesian defense minister – then he is not going to be in office for long.

Subianto was appointed to the post of defense minister in 2019 by incumbent President Joko Widodo after conceding the presidential race to him, and was effectively given the job by Widodo (reportedly along with the promise to support Subianto in the following presidential election in 2024) as a "peace offering" largely intended to placate the Indonesian military (which had previously removed Indonesia's first president, Sukarno, from power in favor of Subianto's late father-in-law Suharto).

Things were actually pretty ugly between Widodo and Subianto beforehand with
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"We have declared (victory) because we got evidence of widespread cheating at the village, sub-district and district levels across Indonesia," Prabowo told reporters, minutes after Widodo declared victory at a separate news conference.

Obviously, Widodo took the threat of a potential military coup seriously, otherwise a sitting president wouldn't have been so magnanimous with a major political rival who had publicly accused him of systematic electoral fraud.

No one — including Prabowo Subianto — can secure and maintain that kind of loyalty and support from a military like Indonesia's unless they're willing to indulge established norms, including patronage systems.

He's in power because he makes sure his guys are not only well fed, but better fed than they would be under anyone else.

To be fair, Subianto is almost certainly principally pursuing this deal to create new "tributaries" to reward loyalists and sustain patronage networks that contributed to his recent ascension to the Indonesian presidency, especially given what reasonable timelines for Kaan deliveries to the Indonesian Air Force tend to look like.

Same could be said of the KF-21 with F414 engines...

That should tell you just how serious the Indonesians were about the KF-21, and how serious they are now about the TAI Kaan.

Anything could happen but you have to break an egg to eat an omelet.

And what metaphoric egg would Turkey and/or Indonesia be breaking here?
 
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sequ

Major
Registered Member
President Prabowo Subianto may not be personally interested in self-enrichment at this point in his career, but if he is unwilling to let his proteges, allies and loyalists who now occupy key post beneath him enrich themselves – as their predecessors did and as he permitted them to do so in his previous capacity as the Indonesian defense minister – then he is not going to be in office for long.

Subianto was appointed to the post of defense minister in 2019 by incumbent President Joko Widodo after conceding the presidential race to him, and was effectively given the job by Widodo (reportedly along with the promise to support Subianto in the following presidential election in 2024) as a "peace offering" largely intended to placate the Indonesian military (which had previously removed Indonesia's first president, Sukarno, from power in favor of Subianto's late father-in-law Suharto).

Things were actually pretty ugly between Widodo and Subianto beforehand with
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Obviously, Widodo took the threat of a military coup seriously, otherwise he wouldn't have been so magnanimous with a major political rival who accused him of systematic electoral fraud.

No one — including Prabowo Subianto — can secure and maintain that kind of loyalty and support from a military like Indonesia's unless they're willing to indulge established norms, including patronage systems.

He's in power because he makes sure his guys are not only well fed, but better fed than they would be under anyone else.

To be fair, Subianto is almost certainly principally pursuing this deal to create new "tributaries" to reward loyalists and sustain patronage networks that contributed to his recent ascension to the Indonesian presidency, especially given what reasonable timelines for Kaan deliveries to the Indonesian Air Force tend to look like.
You are entitled to your opinions but the fact is that there is both interest at the highest level and a need for a heavy fighter. Without it there is little possibility of presumed corruption.

That should tell you just how serious the Indonesians were about the KF-21, and how serious they are now about the TAI Kaan.
They are operating the F-16 for 3 decades now and continue to upgrade it. They are good enough in Uncle Sams book to use US engines.

And what metaphoric egg would Turkey and/or Indonesia be breaking here?
Simple, by not only paying visits to the Turkish defence industry but also by signing agreements like yesterdays MoU.
 

zyklon

Junior Member
Registered Member
You are entitled to your opinions but the fact is that there is both interest at the highest level and a need for a heavy fighter. Without it there is little possibility of presumed corruption.

There's definitely high level interest in Jakarta when it comes to creating mechanisms for enriching those who recently came to power. That's par for course when a new administration is inaugurated.

However, that doesn't mean the Indonesian authorities actually expects to buy many or even any TAI Kaans. You should be familiar with their track record of limited and pending fighter acquisitions, so I won't elaborate.

Moreover, the Indonesian Air Force also doesn't need the TAI Kaan — as you incorrectly claim — given that it isn't in fact structured or resourced to even challenge its principal rival, the RAAF, which isn't particularly impressive to begin with, or anyone else in the region with a modern air force.

Sure, the Indonesians would like to have a modern air force capable of contesting airspace against regional rivals, but the reality is that the Indonesian Air Force, like the rest of the Indonesian military, is principally focused inward rather than outward, and there's no indication of that changing.

They are operating the F-16 for 3 decades now and continue to upgrade it. They are good enough in Uncle Sams book to use US engines.

You're missing the point here.

The US is happy to export American made turbofans for use in American made fighters that are exported abroad.

However, it's going to take significant lobbying — that neither Turkey nor Indonesia is resourced for in DC — to get the US to permit the export of American made turbofans so they can power foreign made fighters that are diluting exports of American made fighters.

Simple, by not only paying visits to the Turkish defence industry but also by singing agreements like yesterdays MoU.

You might want to revisit what "you have to break an egg to eat an omelet" actually means.
 

sequ

Major
Registered Member
Development work on Kaans sensors and electronics have progressed significantly.

As expected Murad-600 will be able to perform various functions at the same time:

"First of all, it will have a game-changing radar with its tracking ability, distance and electronic warfare capability at the same time. We have now developed its radar; MURAD-600. This will provide the aircraft with long-range engagement and the ability to send missiles to the desired location at long range. An integrated electronic warfare system has been developed for this. Systems that will bring this aircraft, which is effective against modern threats and works integrated with all these radars, to the fore with its electronic warfare capabilities in all operations. It was developed as an Electronic Warfare Suite."

Datalink for stealth platforms:

"IVDL: Apart from these systems, as you know, we have also developed an in-arm data link, which we define as IVDL, which is the name of the product, through which manned aircraft and unmanned aircraft will communicate together, which is the new concept of the new battlefield. In particular, we have developed a system that is not easily detected, very broadband, very fast and with high detection and electronic warfare protection, and with this system, we will see KAAN flying with Kızılelma and KAAN flying with Anka. This data link will enable us to operate our systems in accordance with the new modern warfare doctrine."

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Black Wolf

Junior Member
Registered Member
The plan so far is to install it by '29 and completion of test flights by '31-'32.

But things are shifting here and there so expect some delays. Next month is IDEF and we'll probably hear more about the TF35000.

So, we can safely predict that by 2035, KAAN will be flying with TF35000.
 
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