training exercise HK Oct 2012-combined force

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PanAsian

Major
I am originally from Hong Kong, and having observed Hong Kong from afar and through second hand anecdotes for a long time I see Hong Kong as going through a phase right now.

Allow me to bring up some historical context here: the modernization of the entire Chinese civilization which began in the 1800s remains unfinished in multiple aspects. Hong Kong is simply in a period of perfect storm from all of these aspects.

There is the colonial influence for better and for worse, the main benefit was the infrastructure for money making, there was no democracy, only a rubber stamping mercantile oligarchy which reports to London. There is plenty of politically motivated, systematic manipulation of the colony's population.

There is the civil war situation, the city was built on the backs of refugees from a hundred years of civil war driven by the complete overhaul of Chinese civilization. This lasted from the colonial period through two world wars, through the cold war, and the Chinese civil war is still unresolved. Taiwan is still out there. There is plenty of personal emotional baggage which lasts through generations.

There is mainland China itself, where the vast majority of people stuck in or chose to remain in a backwards China went through a long, hard road to improve themselves and their country when people such as those who went to Hong Kong or Taiwan for greener pastures abandoned them to their fate for whatever reason. Some of them may be unrefined, may still be relatively backwards in some ways, but they didn't run, they are and are fighting as the rightful main heir of Chinese civilization. Colonial Hong Kong was an anomaly, and it may just be egoism and inertia for those Hong Kongers who think that anomaly deserves preservation.

All this adds up to a very complex identity crisis for Hong Kong and Hong Kongers which clearly many fail to solve. Similar to the situation of a poor child from a troubled home sold or ran away into servitude for a rich family, then reunited with their now stabilized family years later, there are many conflicts to be addressed. It is easy to blame others and tempting to feel entitled to coddling instead of taking a good hard look at themselves and adapt to a new reality.
 
A

airsuperiority

Captain
MwRYum said:
But you should know how difficult that can be. The significance of HK has waned when the exchange rate of RMB overtake HKD, even today other mainland cities and provinces have long voiced discontent to how much Beijing's giving HK leeway despite the world has changed long against HK's favor. Giving in that much to HK without some tangible returns? Central governance model means there's a strict hierachy between the local and cental government bodies, and now what HK demands elevates to an almost equal to central government, think about what'd the other cities and provinces think and demand in return?

Obviously HK people never give any thought about that, and instead dreaming for the kind of loose governance model the west adopted, or they simply refuse to ponder the "trade", what price they've to pay. Central government have stated time and again it'd not tolerate separatism, and the kind of things HK people doing now, despite their denial (or they just backtrack when the unusual hard words comes from Beijing leaders) their message is separatism to Beijing's ears. That's where things get dicy.

In the end, HK people have to decide what and how to trade with Beijing, not necessary "giving up and join the droolers", but something to ease Beijing's mind, that HK isn't really waltzing on the tune of separatism, maybe offer those few idiots who do to the chopping block from time to time...?

As long as Beijing still firmly believe it's getting its money's worth, HK can go still go by its own tunes.
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Very well said man. This is very true and accurate analysis. I also recognize that for all honesty, if by being fair we shan't be receiving so much...it's just Beijing now really are indeed trying to be nice, knowing this kid won't be happy eating what they usually eat at home, and will take some time.

And indeed what you've said do also reflect an accurate inconsiderations of Beijing's position by the HK. HK government tries to please Beijing cause they know more of their positions to the state, and long term better not to piss the capital off or wane its patience because it may lead to more negativity. On the other hand, The majority of HK is in also a sense, much ahead of China's progress in terms of mentality, so attempting for a perfect accord that fixes everything ain't going to be easy in the long-run. Luckily most of the people in HK never thought about separatism, but yes like you've said there's a need we demonstrate that Beijing not only shouldn't have to fear, but rather provide enough comfort to Beijing that the group waving the Union Jack on Sunday at Victoria Park is indeed just a 1%, not representing the 99%

Something I sort of inquire is if it's possible for CCP to extract people from HK to work in the central government and various provinces. I know it's been a CCP policy not to do so, but I feel one of the ways to start helping things can be to bring some of the labor in HK and expertise into other areas of government and industries and infrastructures such as hospitals etc. But of course while working is probably fine, it's not a silver bullet because many still lies in the cultural component and various incidents which occur with China and HK within HK.
 
A

airsuperiority

Captain
jackliu said:
When you talk about value and identity, of course I agree Chia is not this homogenous eneity where everyone have the exact some background, I mean heck I read a report that over half of the 1.3 billion people right now cannot speak proper Mandarin in China. You have Shanghai identity, Shenyang identity Shandon identity, HK identified etc... basically you can see all of Chinese have their regional identities. But what holds us together is the common identity of being Chinese. So I think when HK people protests just about EVERYTHING that the mainland does, they really upset a lot of people. I am sure the CCP does not want to wash away HK identity as they feel the need to wash away Shanghai identity, nor it is in their best interest to do so, but when every time HK people criticize mainland for every little thing they do, they are not doing themselves a favor acting this way, and they are not making a good reputation in Beijing. The number one concern of Chinese government is holding the nation together at all costs, that's why you see there were more cops than protesters in the so call Jasmine revolution gather locations, that's why you see the anti-secession laws. They are not being passed so they can supress or kill people, they are being used to confirm thier standce on how serious they view the situation.

As for Main lander not respecting HK value and custom such as peeing on the train talk loud etc... I can tell you this, this is NOT Chinese custom as well, this is custom of uneducated people, it speaks more about that person's own background rather than representing a people as a whole. Because as far as I know, there is no culture on earth values the value of peeing on trains carts. And lastly I don't have the statistic on how often this happens, I myself travel to China a lot and I got to tell you, so far, I have not see one person peeing on the train or bus. I do however see a lot of behavior cutting in the line and talking loudly, but I don't see them as representing Chinese culture, it speaks more of that person's self-quality itself, and of course being poor for the rest of their life and only recently got some doh will make people tend to act that way, that's why I heard that a lot of self respecting high cultured Chinese does not buy Mercedes anymore, because their imagine has been trashed by a lot of former poor farmer that exploded in wealth in recent years.

As for giving babies in HK to receive benefit, again... this is not Chinese value or some kind of action that was done on purpose to disrespect HK value, this is simply for a person to have done a economic calculation, and realize it is in their FINANCIAL best interest to have children in HK to receive the benefit. This is EXACTLY like so many illegal Mexican giving birth in US to receive US citizenship. I don't support this action, but I don't attributed this action of being Main lander either, and if HK government decide to crack down on this behavior I support it.

What I don't support is politicized this behavior to look down upon a whole class of people. Behavior such as peeing in public , talking loud and attribute them to the people of "mainland" of seeing them as some kind of uncivilized barbarians. Because deep down we are all the same people, only difference is one group is much more richer than the other. But no matter how rich you are, it does not change your blood
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Very well said. I never once believed that's how we Chinese roll..because I certainly don't want to believe our civilization had mannerisms of medieval Europe. Everything you've said really reflects how I feel. I do not, will not, think that's mainlanders. As I've mentioned, I was in Chengdu last year, and my friends there seemed much more mannered, which I'm glad to see. And you're right, that the population who commits those are one of the few who gives a bad name for everyone else, and then got stereotyped into this being Chinese. Stereotype and prejudice are bad, even if it's a phenomenon known to my major. Of course for those in HK who waves the flag can also produce a bad image for us, so it goes both ways. Stereotypes and prejudice really are something we should all pay attention to, because it's a very serious thing.

Bottom of the heart HK still considers ourselves Chinese, but all the mess on top is like layers of bad paint...Gonna need to clean that stuff out.

Anyways very great post. I whole-heartedly agree with what you've said.
 
Equation

Equation

Lieutenant General
PanAsian said:
There is mainland China itself, where the vast majority of people stuck in or chose to remain in a backwards China went through a long, hard road to improve themselves and their country when people such as those who went to Hong Kong or Taiwan for greener pastures abandoned them to their fate for whatever reason. Some of them may be unrefined, may still be relatively backwards in some ways, but they didn't run, they are and are fighting as the rightful main heir of Chinese civilization. Colonial Hong Kong was an anomaly, and it may just be egoism and inertia for those Hong Kongers who think that anomaly deserves preservation.

All this adds up to a very complex identity crisis for Hong Kong and Hong Kongers which clearly many fail to solve. Similar to the situation of a poor child from a troubled home sold or ran away into servitude for a rich family, then reunited with their now stabilized family years later, there are many conflicts to be addressed. It is easy to blame others and tempting to feel entitled to coddling instead of taking a good hard look at themselves and adapt to a new reality.
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I understand what you're saying but it still does not make sense to me as to why is it so important to keep this so called Hong Kong anomaly or identity crisis? A lot of things a can be anomaly, just because the HK spoke English with a British ascent and I spoke English with a little bit of a Texas twang doesn't make me any different or special! Geez get over trying to be different for difference sake, your Chinese roots will never go away as long as you live. I don't want to see the polarization of Chinese people everywhere around the world because it would not be very useful.
 
Equation

Equation

Lieutenant General
airsuperiority said:
As I've mentioned, I was in Chengdu last year, and my friends there seemed much more mannered, which I'm glad to see. And you're right, that the population who commits those are one of the few who gives a bad name for everyone else, and then got stereotyped into this being Chinese. Stereotype and prejudice are bad, even if it's a phenomenon known to my major. Of course for those in HK who waves the flag can also produce a bad image for us, so it goes both ways. Stereotypes and prejudice really are something we should all pay attention to, because it's a very serious thing..
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Brother I can sympathize with you with that feeling. But you need to stand up for yourself and quit cowering to someone else's view about Chinese people due to stereotyping. So what, if a Chinese did something that's embarrassing, it's not like any other people in the world are not guilty of it. My point is don't let a single media outlet to become the only voice for the outside world to talk down on China to shape and shame her into submission.
 
A

airsuperiority

Captain
PanAsian said:
I am originally from Hong Kong, and having observed Hong Kong from afar and through second hand anecdotes for a long time I see Hong Kong as going through a phase right now.

Allow me to bring up some historical context here: the modernization of the entire Chinese civilization which began in the 1800s remains unfinished in multiple aspects. Hong Kong is simply in a period of perfect storm from all of these aspects.

There is the colonial influence for better and for worse, the main benefit was the infrastructure for money making, there was no democracy, only a rubber stamping mercantile oligarchy which reports to London. There is plenty of politically motivated, systematic manipulation of the colony's population.

There is the civil war situation, the city was built on the backs of refugees from a hundred years of civil war driven by the complete overhaul of Chinese civilization. This lasted from the colonial period through two world wars, through the cold war, and the Chinese civil war is still unresolved. Taiwan is still out there. There is plenty of personal emotional baggage which lasts through generations.

There is mainland China itself, where the vast majority of people stuck in or chose to remain in a backwards China went through a long, hard road to improve themselves and their country when people such as those who went to Hong Kong or Taiwan for greener pastures abandoned them to their fate for whatever reason. Some of them may be unrefined, may still be relatively backwards in some ways, but they didn't run, they are and are fighting as the rightful main heir of Chinese civilization. Colonial Hong Kong was an anomaly, and it may just be egoism and inertia for those Hong Kongers who think that anomaly deserves preservation.

All this adds up to a very complex identity crisis for Hong Kong and Hong Kongers which clearly many fail to solve. Similar to the situation of a poor child from a troubled home sold or ran away into servitude for a rich family, then reunited with their now stabilized family years later, there are many conflicts to be addressed. It is easy to blame others and tempting to feel entitled to coddling instead of taking a good hard look at themselves and adapt to a new reality.
Click to expand...

This is true.

I once talked to a someone working for the Egyptian mission to the UN about identity crisis, and I have compared HK's current status to Egypt in a way that both are attempting a new identity after the political transitions earlier. While both are comparatively different, there are also some similarities, in such they need to figure out how they want to be.

For example, HK wants to be democracy, but how can we do it so we maintain the balance in the sense we are still under China, but also our culture and simultaneously connected to the rest of the country? How will we deal with the cultural shock as soon as we leave HK? I always feel different whenever my plane enters Chinese airspace and leave HK. The first immediate changes would be the simplified.

Sometimes I feel we HKers are very blessed that we are able to stay afloat despite so many ups and downs that we've been through(look at Japan for example), and we actually live in one of the most advanced cities with some of the most competitive environments in the world. Despite all those, without figuring the identity we will never get anywhere too far. How much can HK maintain on its own path, and how much shall we recognize we will need to fuse with China?

Furthermore, how will, with each successive generations, change the overall culture of Hong Kong? Everything is moving in a tread, and I really appreciate you for bringing up this important point which most of us have forgotten.
 
A

airsuperiority

Captain
Equation said:
Brother I can sympathize with you with that feeling. But you need to stand up for yourself and quit cowering to someone else's view about Chinese people due to stereotyping. So what, if a Chinese did something that's embarrassing, it's not like any other people in the world are not guilty of it. My point is don't let a single media outlet to become the only voice for the outside world to talk down on China to shape and shame her into submission.
Click to expand...

Well if you remember, I never consider that's we Chinese are, and I behave to demonstrate a good name for my people and my identities (Hong Kong, Chinese, Canadian). The only thing is just that when in Hong kong, I criticize them for their stereotypes, and when I'm here, I will stand the more critical roles towards how China is. When I'm in Canada or the West, I will rationally defend China when it's right, and illustrate the West's stereotypes and double-standards back to them. I will never turn my back against where I'm from, but at "home" I will pick on ourselves so we can think more on how we at home can improve. For myself my criticisms do not come out of hate, so I attempt to provide a proper analysis rationally with an intention of working things out. I devote my life by this philosophy.

As for discriminations and things, I get along with almost everyone. I respect everyone's differences and expect neither sides to attempt to offend the other. When one fails respect, I give them a share of their medicine. For example for earlier post I felt the rudeness so I replied in a much less mannered tone. Right now we're in proper again so I treat you respectfully as usual. When they are acting proper, I credit them. I try to be impartial, even though I still have much work to do and will continue to try and improve much more myself.

And don't worry I won't let minor things sway me to think anyone as one-sided. There's an awful lot of bad Asian drivers at where I live and my parents will say they must be from China. One time I got fed up and I told them it's very discriminatory. You must know that's how they had been like all these years, and not ever had they influenced me to think mainland Chinese people are bad etc. At home it's the same deal. People can say all the want, but I will either ignore them, or defend when I must, and when I'm outside I definitely defend who we are. The only reasons I criticize China for some of these events is because they really do occur, but in no way will it ever lead me to believe that's how all mainland Chinese people roll.
 
A

airsuperiority

Captain
Equation said:
I understand what you're saying but it still does not make sense to me as to why is it so important to keep this so called Hong Kong anomaly or identity crisis? A lot of things a can be anomaly, just because the HK spoke English with a British ascent and I spoke English with a little bit of a Texas twang doesn't make me any different or special! Geez get over trying to be different for difference sake, your Chinese roots will never go away as long as you live. I don't want to see the polarization of Chinese people everywhere around the world because it would not be very useful.
Click to expand...

Understanding you're from Texas I suppose, I guess perhaps what you're talking about is assimilation. This is the American approach, and the issues with assimilation, aka melting pot, is that sometimes it fails to observe differences, and that's not good. Enforcing the subcultures to submit to dominant trends will ignore their differences which make them special.

On the other hand, Canada is about multiculturalism and diversity, so we celebrate the differences. Of course each culture is different, so it's up to discretion to determine which is the better approach. For China, assimilation occurred with many groups which diverge into under Han, but then now in the recent decades I suppose minority celebrations have taken place, which is good. This is because China has at least 56 minority groups, and if we get into it deeper, even each region and city possesses its own culture. For all those, it's important to understand and learn them and how they are, but all the same time, ensure everyone knows where the glue(common Chinese identity) is. When everyone knows where the glue is and what makes us band, then differences are not a threat. Believe me about this one. One of the many things I've learned is this; multiculturalism. At the Global Village event of World Model United Nations, students from around the globe participated in it and in this event they brought gifts from their home country to share. We get to try Belgian chocolate, Australian desserts, South African tea, German beer, Taiwanese snacks, etc. etc. We later started dancing and had tons of fun, dancing with everyone. We don't know each other, but we appreciate and recognize everyone for where they're from and that we're all different. The question "where are you from" is a fun question for us. With all that said, the best thing I've learned is that one can't understand and appreciate multiculturalism and diversity until you get to have fun with each other. It's a very beautiful thing because we're all different, and those differences make us who we are, being appreciated and respected for those is truly demonstrating others recognizing your uniqueness. It also make each of us equal (kind of like random sampling?) without really anyone superior than the rest. At those times you will learn how we are all different, different cultures, what we can laugh at commonly, and what it means to be universal citizens. I can even tell you, that in the UN they have a cafeteria where no beef nor pork are served.( I ate there before. Tasted like airplane food, but it's quite healthy lol) It's another recognition of respect for the significant Hindi and Muslim population. Respect is probably one of the most important traits we humans can possess.

Let's put it this way. We all like to be appreciated, and to be appreciated means you must recognize the goods, bads, similarities, and differences of each person. HK is going through a bit of identity crisis, but it's essential that we recognize the issue and recover, otherwise it will lead to a very confused stagnation where proper productivity can be stunned. This of course can be disruptive in the very long run if not resolved. For that, how HK is it's still important to observe and recognize how it is.
 
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solarz

solarz

Brigadier
So I looked through Air's folder of pics about Mainland education, and I can certainly understand why some HKer would have such a big reaction. What everyone seems to be ignoring in mainstream discourse is that most HKers today grew up in a very anti-communist culture. I remember watching a lot of 90's HK movies where Mainland is depicted negatively, and/or '97 is made out to be some apocalyptic event. Vancouver's Chinese population exploded precisely due to the anticipation of 97.

So it's really unsurprising that many HKers would react negatively to Mainland patriotism education. I blame the Mainland education ministry here. They didn't even bother with doing any homework and simply ported the Mainland patriotism education model into Hongkong.

While Jack Liu is correct in saying that the actual material is no worse than what US teaches, it's the context that is the problem here. This is very much like teaching the American view of history to the French. Excusez-moi, who started this whole Democracy thing? Washington? Did you yanks forget a little thing called the French Revolution??

Anyway, when it comes to patriotism, I'll always respect the HKers a whole lot more than the Taiwanese. I mean, those guys don't even admit they're Chinese...

I remember in one job, I met this Chinese guy who spoke with a Cantonese accent. I asked him, as part of casual conversation, where he was from. In Mainland, that's a very common ice-breaker and you're supposed to say which part of China you're from. This guy just looked at me like I was nuts and said, "I'm Chinese!". Turns out he's from Hongkong.

Anyway, I think HKers certainly do have prejudices against Mainlanders, but Mainlanders certainly also have prejudices against HKers. The problem with HKers is that they're not used to being prejudiced against, at least not in Hongkong itself, so they don't know how to deal with it. On the other hand, Mainland has prejudices against all the major regions of China, so in a way, Mainlanders don't really see their prejudices as a problem. My wife, who is from Gansu, is always making prejudiced remarks about Shanghai, where my family is from.

The difference with Hongkong is, when things like that eating on the train incident happens, there is an additional element of political insecurity added to all the existing prejudices, and that can make an explosive mixture.

In the end, HK and Mainland is going through a period of accomodation and familiarization. These kinds of tensions are to be expected.
 
A

airsuperiority

Captain
solarz said:
So I looked through Air's folder of pics about Mainland education, and I can certainly understand why some HKer would have such a big reaction. What everyone seems to be ignoring in mainstream discourse is that most HKers today grew up in a very anti-communist culture. I remember watching a lot of 90's HK movies where Mainland is depicted negatively, and/or '97 is made out to be some apocalyptic event. Vancouver's Chinese population exploded precisely due to the anticipation of 97.

So it's really unsurprising that many HKers would react negatively to Mainland patriotism education. I blame the Mainland education ministry here. They didn't even bother with doing any homework and simply ported the Mainland patriotism education model into Hongkong.

While Jack Liu is correct in saying that the actual material is no worse than what US teaches, it's the context that is the problem here. This is very much like teaching the American view of history to the French. Excusez-moi, who started this whole Democracy thing? Washington? Did you yanks forget a little thing called the French Revolution??

Anyway, when it comes to patriotism, I'll always respect the HKers a whole lot more than the Taiwanese. I mean, those guys don't even admit they're Chinese...

I remember in one job, I met this Chinese guy who spoke with a Cantonese accent. I asked him, as part of casual conversation, where he was from. In Mainland, that's a very common ice-breaker and you're supposed to say which part of China you're from. This guy just looked at me like I was nuts and said, "I'm Chinese!". Turns out he's from Hongkong.

Anyway, I think HKers certainly do have prejudices against Mainlanders, but Mainlanders certainly also have prejudices against HKers. The problem with HKers is that they're not used to being prejudiced against, at least not in Hongkong itself, so they don't know how to deal with it. On the other hand, Mainland has prejudices against all the major regions of China, so in a way, Mainlanders don't really see their prejudices as a problem. My wife, who is from Gansu, is always making prejudiced remarks about Shanghai, where my family is from.

The difference with Hongkong is, when things like that eating on the train incident happens, there is an additional element of political insecurity added to all the existing prejudices, and that can make an explosive mixture.

In the end, HK and Mainland is going through a period of accomodation and familiarization. These kinds of tensions are to be expected.
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Very good post man.

You got this very right man. Patriotism occurs from different levels, and how some are patriots are only in a certain dimension and not others.
HK's patriotism arises from heritage and ethnicity, but maintain HK's identity and do not incorporate politics into patriotism, which is good.
Patriotism can be good if irrelevant issues are separated, such as politics. When getting those mixed, it's no longer purely patriotism, and rather it can lead to blind acceptance of government policies. With that said, I agree with Solarz's argument of the material is no less than what's being taught in the West.

Also you're correct HK dislikes CCP and communism, but this is about the party, not what Chinese is. We make the distinction pretty separate. And we do suffer a mistake of easily associating sentiments and political views together, which isn't good.

And once again you've nailed on point, that all these will take time to improve. Beijing shan't rush it; instead recognize the differences and give the situation time to evolve. Sometimes some things are best to be left alone until its not too hot to handle.

Overall, stereotypes and prejudice are bad, and we should always avoid making presumptions like that.
 
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