Trade War with China

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Totoro

Major
VIP Professional
Iran state has zero reason to perform or support these attacks. Last thing in their interest is to incur the wrath of US or other countries and potentially have to endure even bigger sanctions or an attack on their country.

Now, some entities within Iran, but not supported by state, may indeed have their crazy reasons to do such a thing, flaming up hostilities. As pure vendetta or other irrational reasons.

But various entities in Saudi Arabia, Israel or US might also have reasons, more rational ones, to do such a thing. Again, not supported by their respective states.

If we're looking for motifs, like a detective, US has the most to gain with a war happening. They're not dependent on the Gulf Oil. Furthermore, as world's biggest oil producer, with oil from the gulf exports stopping while there's a war, the prices would skyrocket and their own oil would get more valuable. People would still need oil, so US would be able to sell oil to new clients. And even when gulf oil does get back on its feet, getting those old clients back, which now went to US, would not be a sure thing. US would get to keep at least some of those clients. China would be hit, as it imports a lot of oil through the gulf. Which in this era of war through economic means on China is another plus for the US.

US hawks would also get to fulfill their wish and damage or even try to depose the iranian regime, as well as their facilities that might be used for nuclear weapons research.

Even Saudi Arabia is not out of the question, as they also export their oil through other routes, not just through the gulf. They would also profit if their other colleagues from the gulf can't sell suddenly. That might make their position in the middle east even stronger.

I want to reiterate that none of these are likely state sponsored. In all likelihood it's more like rogue, though possibly influental, organisations plotting wars. Not unlike James Bond movies, however crazy that may sound.
 

Just4Fun

Junior Member
Registered Member
false flag

Not really a false flag.

Trump is being dragged deeper and deeper into the Iran Trap he made for himself.

Trump now is in a really dilemmatic, really damaging situation. Going into a shooting war with Iran would be a Vietnam war-like defeat. Walking away from the Gulf hot-spot would likely cost his re-election in 2020. Ramping up war rhetoric would only worsen the situation. Begging a talk with the Persian turban-men hasn't worked for a full year. Mobilizing more military assets into the Gulf would only cost more money but generating nothing.

Fight is impossible. Flight is the only answer. The real question for Trump right now is how to fly over the troubles his stupidity and inflated ego have created. He needs someone to go-between to help start a talk with the Iranians. His golf-boy Abe, the PM of Japan, has been rudely pushed away from the door by Iranians. He needs someone that the Persians can trust. Who can be his go-between-man? Xi and Putin certainly can be a lot of help in this matter, but what the price they would ask for?

Oh, Lord, please help. I need get out of the Iran Trap.

Lessen from Trump's failures: Don't brag around in a casino if you don't have money.
 

CMP

Senior Member
Registered Member
On the contrary, I hope he continues to circle the drain until a Gulf War 3 gets set off, whether through incompetence, malice, carelessness, or all of the above.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
Iran is not really much of a military threat for the US. America has been preparing for an attack on Iran for decades, ever since the Iranian revolution.

The Iranians had neither the money or technology to pose a serious military threat, and the primary factor that has stayed America’s hand is geography, and Iran’s ability to disrupt oil shipments in the ME.

America has largely weaned itself off ME oil with fracking and shale, so at this point, and Iranian attacks on oil tankers would be far far more damaging for China than America.

Speaking of China, it really doesn’t have any special relationship with Iran; frankly, China most likely values its relations with Saudi Arabia and Israel more than Iran, and both of whom would not be pleased if China backed Iran in any significant way.

Not that China has the means or will to get involved in any case. While China can present a serious challenge to the US militarily in its own sphere of influence, the ME is far too far away from China for China to be able to mount any major military operation against even a weaker foe, never mind the US military. The same is true of Russia. It lacks the means to support Iran as it did Vietnam because it geography.

Vietnam was only Vietnam for the US because it had the steadfast support of both the USSR and China.

Iran has no such backers, so would be no match for the US militarily, which is probably why Trump is now sniffing around.

As history has shown, nothing distracts and unites a country like shooting war.

Trump has bitten off more than he can chew with his trade war with China, a hot War with Iran would be just the thing he needs to distract the American people from the economic pain to come; and a win would whip up nationalism and all but assure his re-election in 2020.
 

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
Iran state has zero reason to perform or support these attacks. Last thing in their interest is to incur the wrath of US or other countries and potentially have to endure even bigger sanctions or an attack on their country.

Now, some entities within Iran, but not supported by state, may indeed have their crazy reasons to do such a thing, flaming up hostilities. As pure vendetta or other irrational reasons.


I would disagree. Iran has an interest in escalating in this sanctions/trade war.
They aren't just going to sit there and take the current "maximum pressure" sanctions.
So there's not much more that the US can do in terms of sanctions.

So eventually, Iran will be crushed if it continues for years.
By that point, they'll be too weak to resist the US or support their proxies who provide an asymmetric way to fight back.

So better to escalate now to get a deal with Trump to allow Iran to export its oil.
They know Trump will be going into election mode soon.
And that Trump (along with the US military) really don't want to get involved in yet another Middle Eastern land war that the US can't win.

By escalating in the Middle East, Iran is also forcing Europe and Japan - to break with the US sanctions.
Germany, France and the UK already publicly agree that the US reneging on the Iran deal and implementing sanctions is absolutely stupid.

Think of the situation when the US cut off Japan's oil trade back in August 1941.
The Imperial Japanese Navy estimated it only had 2 years supply of fuel for its ships.
Then afterwards, the Japanese Navy and the Japanese economy would be crippled.

So when Imperial Japan couldn't obtain the oil it needed from either the US, the Dutch East Indies or the Middle East, it's not a surprise that Japan decided it had no choice but go to war. Even though Japan knew the US was a larger opponent that could eventually defeat them.

---

You're also right that certain elements in Saudi Arabia, Israel and the US have an interest in attacking the oil tankers.

Saudi Arabia and Israel would be overjoyed if US soldiers did the dying in an Iran War, whilst they sat back and watched.
In the Iraq War, we did see elements in the USA (which include Bolton - the current National Security Advisor) conspire with Israel/Saudi.
And they did succeed in starting a war based on fake intelligence on Iraqi WMD.


But various entities in Saudi Arabia, Israel or US might also have reasons, more rational ones, to do such a thing. Again, not supported by their respective states.

If we're looking for motifs, like a detective, US has the most to gain with a war happening. They're not dependent on the Gulf Oil. Furthermore, as world's biggest oil producer, with oil from the gulf exports stopping while there's a war, the prices would skyrocket and their own oil would get more valuable. People would still need oil, so US would be able to sell oil to new clients. And even when gulf oil does get back on its feet, getting those old clients back, which now went to US, would not be a sure thing. US would get to keep at least some of those clients. China would be hit, as it imports a lot of oil through the gulf. Which in this era of war through economic means on China is another plus for the US.

US hawks would also get to fulfill their wish and damage or even try to depose the iranian regime, as well as their facilities that might be used for nuclear weapons research.

Even Saudi Arabia is not out of the question, as they also export their oil through other routes, not just through the gulf. They would also profit if their other colleagues from the gulf can't sell suddenly. That might make their position in the middle east even stronger.

I want to reiterate that none of these are likely state sponsored. In all likelihood it's more like rogue, though possibly influental, organisations plotting wars. Not unlike James Bond movies, however crazy that may sound.
 

Totoro

Major
VIP Professional
I would disagree. Iran has an interest in escalating in this sanctions/trade war.
They aren't just going to sit there and take the current "maximum pressure" sanctions.
So there's not much more that the US can do in terms of sanctions.

There so much more sanctions that can be added. Right now it's mostly energy, technology and finance that's under sanctions. Majority of regular trade for commons goods is still going on.
Plus, Europe is actualyl sort of on Iran's side, after US pulled out of the deal. So to start a war, that'd push the EU on US side.


So better to escalate now to get a deal with Trump to allow Iran to export its oil.

How does that work? Iran escalates into hostile military action. And then... US administration says "Okay, you can attack those tankers. We don't like that. So we'll make a deal with you" ?
That's not going to happen. What would happen is "You're attacking those tankers? We will attack you now. Prepare to be bombed"

They know Trump will be going into election mode soon.
And that Trump (along with the US military) really don't want to get involved in yet another Middle Eastern land war that the US can't win.
Why a land war? A year long bombing campaign without boots on the ground could set back Iranian economy a lot. Especially coupled with total ban on ever kind of trade with anyone. And Europe would play ball this time, if it's indeed Iran who started it all.

By escalating in the Middle East, Iran is also forcing Europe and Japan - to break with the US sanctions.
Germany, France and the UK already publicly agree that the US reneging on the Iran deal and implementing sanctions is absolutely stupid.
Again, how does that work? Escalation into war actions leads to Europe and Japan to start trading more with IRan? The opposite is more likely. Can you explain in detail, all the steps in between that are going to happen, which would lead from these war actions to Europe and Japan breaking with US sanctions?

So when Imperial Japan couldn't obtain the oil it needed from either the US, the Dutch East Indies or the Middle East, it's not a surprise that Japan decided it had no choice but go to war. Even though Japan knew the US was a larger opponent that could eventually defeat them.

I don't see much of an analogy. Japan wasn't sure US would enter a war. Japan really believed they might win enough against US so US steps down.
Iran is SO much weaker than US, compared to what Japan was with US in 1941, that there is NO chance iran can believe they can win against US. Therefore it makes no sense for Iran to start a war.

If anything, Iran actually DOES have time to wait and not do anything. With US China relations deteriorating so quickly, it may wait to see if within a few years or so there'll be a political rift in the world, one that'd free China, Russia and some other countries to freely trade with Iran if they wanted to. Because their economies are so decoupled from the western ones that there's nothing for them to lose if they did that.
 

signgraph

Banned Idiot
Registered Member
The Japanese ship operator says sailors on board the Kokuka Courageous, one of the vessels attacked near the Strait of Hormuz, saw “flying objects” just before the attack, suggesting the tanker wasn’t damaged by mines.

That account contradicts what the U.S. military has said as it released a video it says shows Iranian forces removing an unexploded limpet mine from one of the two ships in the suspected attack.

Japanese operator: Sailors saw ‘flying objects’ before oil tanker attack
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Western terrorists have a long sordid history of using false flags to start their genocidal wars of aggression...Gulf of Tonkin, Nayirah testimony, Iraq wmd, etc, etc.

Going to War: Unraveling the Tangled Web of American Pretext Stratagems (1846-1989)
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AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
There so much more sanctions that can be added. Right now it's mostly energy, technology and finance that's under sanctions. Majority of regular trade for commons goods is still going on.
Plus, Europe is actualyl sort of on Iran's side, after US pulled out of the deal. So to start a war, that'd push the EU on US side.

You do realise that "mostly energy, technology and finance" is pretty much all of the Iranian economy.
Iran currently has zero oil exports. It can't pay for regular trade for common goods.
Don't you realise this?

If you read what I wrote, Iran is escalating in response to the increased sanctions, and threatening war.
But an actual war is not in Iran's interests, nor is it in the interests of a rational US.
I don't think Iran will actually initiate an overt war with the US. But we've seen Iran steadily ramp up non-attributable attacks.
But both sides are stuck in an escalation spiral, and if the US doesn't relax the sanctions regime, it will soon cripple the Iranian economy,

How does that work? Iran escalates into hostile military action. And then... US administration says "Okay, you can attack those tankers. We don't like that. So we'll make a deal with you" ?
That's not going to happen. What would happen is "You're attacking those tankers? We will attack you now. Prepare to be bombed"

Iran's response is of course, Iran didn't attack those tankers.
But Iran could close the Straits of Hormuz and attack a heck of a lot more tankers if Iran has no choice.

Why a land war? A year long bombing campaign without boots on the ground could set back Iranian economy a lot. Especially coupled with total ban on ever kind of trade with anyone. And Europe would play ball this time, if it's indeed Iran who started it all.

Yes, you don't think that in a year long bombing campaign against Iran, soft US land targets won't be attacked everywhere in the Middle East.
And here is the rub. You assume that Iran starts it.

Here in Europe, the view is that it is that much of the fault is with the USA for implementing sanctions on Iran.
And whilst Europe doesn't like the Iran sanctions, Europe is following because European companies aren't being protected by the EU from retaliation.
Iran's strategy isn't to get into a war (unless as a last resort). It is to inflict enough disruption until the nuclear deal is reinstated by Europe.

Again, how does that work? Escalation into war actions leads to Europe and Japan to start trading more with IRan? The opposite is more likely. Can you explain in detail, all the steps in between that are going to happen, which would lead from these war actions to Europe and Japan breaking with US sanctions?

A large increase in oil prices causes an economic slowdown/recession for one.
The French President and German Chancellor have publicly said that the US is a threat to Europe, in large part due to its actions over Iran.
Trump just threatened Germany with sanctions for buying gas with Russia.
And remember that Europe has a larger economy than the USA. So theoretically Europe is well placed to break with US sanctions, because almost everyone else in the world will follow.

I don't see much of an analogy. Japan wasn't sure US would enter a war. Japan really believed they might win enough against US so US steps down.
Iran is SO much weaker than US, compared to what Japan was with US in 1941, that there is NO chance iran can believe they can win against US. Therefore it makes no sense for Iran to start a war.

If anything, Iran actually DOES have time to wait and not do anything. With US China relations deteriorating so quickly, it may wait to see if within a few years or so there'll be a political rift in the world, one that'd free China, Russia and some other countries to freely trade with Iran if they wanted to. Because their economies are so decoupled from the western ones that there's nothing for them to lose if they did that.
 
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