Trade War with China

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Xizor

Captain
Registered Member
Well. I messed up, i admit. I looked up the dates for Bloomberg and it was indeed last year's. The month being same (May) tricks you into thinking otherwise. Still, i get so riled up after reading that document. It is not certainly a "considerate" document. "Imposing" as others have noted. Wish we had the latest 2019 May draft.

Somebody spare me the embarrassment and delete my above comments.
 
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Gatekeeper

Brigadier
Registered Member
Well. I messed up, i admit. I looked up the dates for Bloomberg and it was indeed last year's. The month being same (May) tricks you into thinking otherwise. Still, i get so riled up after reading that document. It is not certainly a "considerate" document. "Imposing" as others have noted. Wish we had the latest 2019 May draft.

Somebody spare me the embarrassment and delete my above comments.

No worries, we all make mistakes. To quote "to err is to be human".
Carry on contributing.
 

Gatekeeper

Brigadier
Registered Member
Ultimately, we all know that the biggest victims currently are American importers based in the States. Trump is trying to roll back and limit China's access to advanced dual-use technologies, but he is causing a lot of collateral damages in both the U.S. and China. It is like using a dozen Vietnam-era B-52s to carpet bomb several houses scattered far apart. Or in Chinese words, using a meat cleaver to kill a chicken (杀鸡用牛刀). Currently, CEOs of many U.S. firms hope the trade war would cause Beijing to further open the market, but I am not sure this would be the case if this trade war persists, and these U.S. firms start to get shut of the Chinese market (in other words, joining the team of victims and the opposite of what they are hoping for).

Exactly, this is where Trump is being shown up as such a simpleton with regards to economics.
He can only see is as a zero sum game. But he make it worse by seeing things in isolation. He thinks the "unfairness" is all down to trade inbalance, and is all China's fault.
Not one minute did he stop to think there are other factors and considerations like services provided by the US and strutral issues in the US, and not to mention the self imposed "dual use" technological embargo. (it's funny that is ok to supply weapons to Saudis for their recent behaviours because it's vital to jobs etc. But somehow it's not ok to China for something that happened 30years ago.
Anyway, today's stocks are down over on Boeing, caterpillar, etc. All companies with over 10% exposure in the Chinese market.
"Trade ear are easy to win" . Funny, we don't hear this anymore, instead all we keep hearing is "China is paying our tariffs" lies.
 

Biscuits

Major
Registered Member
I mainly take issue with the way some people frame information in this thread in outright misleading ways.

Still, we need to know the contents of the updated revised draft to judge how much was apparently set to be conceded. I don't trust the administration's justifications to the media claiming China was prepared to accede to the US's demanded legal adjustments. Yes Liu He is a strong proponent of market liberalization, but I doubt his negotiation ability was so poor that it might've resembled Qing mandarins signing unequal treaties.

We know from fairly recent news reports that the enforcement mechanism was to happen through enforcement offices, not laws. Also that both sides would be able to impose measures if the other one deviate from the terms, through determination by the enforcement office. It was also known that no changes to laws would happen, with no handouts to US companies. However, US companies can complain with the enforcement office if they feel infringed on, same applying for Chinese companies in America.

The big unknowns were: "how much and how would Xi amend the trade deficit?", "would there be changes to MIC 2025?", "would America be made to cancel all tariffs, or just the ones set up during the trade war?" and "how would China enforce rule of law inside the US?"

The initial US draft was basically a choosing beggar demanding 10 items for free, actually hoping that they will get even just 1 of the 10 items. By everything we know, the deal by 2019 April was a very two sided affair, and it's surprising that Xi didn't take it, but maybe he's unwilling to sign a two sided agreement with someone who started the fight.
 
ouh là là
China overplayed its hand with Trump on trade, and it could cost them dearly

Updated 10:58 AM ET, Thu May 9, 2019
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and the United States were moving towards an agreement to end a months-long trade war when, suddenly, it all fell apart this week.
Now as negotiators scramble to resurrect the deal, revelations are emerging that indicate both sides appeared to think they had the other over a barrel. As a result, they pushed for more, setting the stage for a rapid escalation in tensions which undid session after session of hard-fought negotiations.
Over the weekend, US President Donald Trump
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, sending markets plummeting and wrong-footing Beijing, which did not issue an immediate response and
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.
On Wednesday, the Chinese government
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, as its top trade negotiator, Vice Premier Liu He heads to Washington for what was supposed to be among the last rounds of discussions with US trade envoy Robert Lighthizer and Treasury Secretary Steven Mnuchin.
"The escalation of trade friction is not in the interests of the people of the two countries and the people of the world," the Chinese Commerce Ministry said in a statement Wednesday.
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, Trump accused Beijing of attempting to run out the clock on his administration in the assumption it will be dealing with a Democratic administration after 2020. Speaking at a rally in Florida later Wednesday, Trump said the new tariffs were because China "broke the deal."
"You see the tariffs we're doing?" the President asked his supporters. "Because they broke the deal!"
"The vice premier is flying in tomorrow, good man, but they broke the deal. They can't do that," he added. "If we don't make the deal, nothing wrong with taking in over 100 billion a year. We never did that before."
When Liu, Lighthizer and Mnuchin sit down, however, they will not be engaging in handshakes and backslapping, but instead acrimonious negotiations pushed most of the way back to square one.
A deal may still result from those talks, but it will be a far harder fought one than anyone expected only a month ago.
What happened?
In launching his trade war, Trump hoped to force China to further open its market to US exports, stop the forced sharing of intellectual property with China, and rewrite trade deals he said have unfairly benefited Beijing.
To do so, he has launched an all out assault against the Chinese economy, massively ramping up tariffs on a large variety of goods and industries. In response, China has imposed its own tariffs,
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.
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is based on the fact that, as the
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in their trade relationship, Beijing will blink before Washington. The Chinese economy is also
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, and Chinese President Xi Jinping faces a
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that make a prolonged trade war difficult.
At first -- despite widespread criticism over the damage to US economic growth and particularly agriculture -- Trump's strategy seemed to be paying off: He forced Beijing to the negotiating table, and in December the two sides
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.
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, Chinese state media reported that negotiators had "reached new consensus on such important issues as the text of the ... trade agreement," while the White House said the talks beginning this week would "cover trade issues including intellectual property, forced technology transfer, non-tariff barriers, agriculture, services, purchases, and enforcement," suggesting they were entering their end stage.
That all changed with Trump's tweets on Sunday.
Crossed wires
Trump has a habit of making policy on Twitter, but his pronouncements on Sunday did not come from nowhere.
US officials
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that at the most recent round of trade talks in Beijing, their Chinese counterparts sought to renegotiate significant aspects of a prospective deal that the Americans felt were already wrapped up.
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, a cable sent from Beijing to Washington late Friday included systematic edits "riddled with reversals by China that undermined core US demands." These reportedly included backtracking on commitments to change laws over intellectual property and trade secrets, competition policy, and currency manipulation.
Speaking to reporters on Monday, Mnuchin said there were "some signs" negotiations were "going substantially backwards," prompting him to update the President.
US officials said that Trump's tweets were meant to rattle Beijing, and were made without extensive discussions with his economic advisers.
What exactly inspired Beijing's broadside is unclear -- a constant peril of dealing with such an opaque political system -- but it appears to be based on a misreading of statements and actions by Trump that he was concerned about the state of the US economy and would be willing to make concessions.
Last week, Trump laid into the US Federal Reserve
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, echoing criticism he made of its chairman Jerome Powell
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, while praising Chinese policy.
"China is adding great stimulus to its economy while at the same time keeping interest rates low. Our Federal Reserve has incessantly lifted interest rates, even though inflation is very low, and instituted a very big dose of quantitative tightening. We have the potential to go up like a rocket if we did some lowering of rates, like one point, and some quantitative easing," Trump said in a series
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.
"Yes, we are doing very well at 3.2% GDP, but with our wonderfully low inflation, we could be setting major records (and) at the same time, make our National Debt start to look small!"
Beijing's perception of US weakness was likely buoyed by its own improving economic situation, with
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and renewed commitment to Xi's trademark
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, which was feted at a
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last month attended by dozens of world leaders.
The assumption that this position of renewed strength would be enough to make Trump blink seems wildly miscalculated, however. Not only is the US economy not nearly as weak as some in Beijing
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, this type of last minute renegotiation seems almost specifically designed to infuriate Trump.
The US President has already shown himself willing to walk away from deals when they don't go his direction --
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in Hanoi, derailing months of rapprochement between the two nuclear powers.
That he would respond equally poorly to strong arm tactics on trade would have been obvious to any longterm observers of Trump except, it turns out, those in Beijing.
 
now I read twice
China shows maximum sincerity, goodwill, but trade deal requires joint efforts: MOC
Xinhua| 2019-05-09 23:16:14
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China has been pushing forward the trade talks with the United States with great sincerity, and hopes the U.S. side can meet China halfway and solve existing problems in a rational, pragmatic manner, a spokesperson with the Ministry of Commerce (MOC) said Thursday.

"[We] hope that the U.S. side can meet China halfway, accommodate each other's core concerns and adopt a rational and pragmatic attitude in solving existing problems," spokesperson Gao Feng said at a regular press conference.

Ahead of the 11th round of high-level economic and trade consultations arranged for Thursday and Friday, the United States announced that it would raise tariffs on 200 billion U.S. dollars worth of Chinese goods from 10 percent to 25 percent as of Friday.

"It is the expectation of the whole world that China and the United States can properly solve economic and trade issues," Gao said.

Although the U.S. side threatened to raise tariffs, the Chinese team went to the United States as planned for the new round of consultations, showing to the greatest extent China's sincerity and goodwill in pushing forward the talks, he added.

"[We] hope that the U.S. side will work with China to push for new progress in the consultations," Gao said, adding that China values its credibility and keeps its promises, and this has never changed.

Reaching an agreement requires joint efforts from both sides, Gao said, stressing that China hopes to reach a mutually beneficial agreement on the basis of equality and mutual respect.

China is willing to carry out candid and in-depth exchanges with the U.S. side on existing differences, Gao said. "Cooperation is always the best choice for China and the United States, and consultation is the right way to solve problems."

Gao said China's stance and attitude towards the U.S. planned tariff hikes are consistent and clear. "We oppose a unilateral tariff hike. There is no winner in a trade war, which is against the interests of China, the United States and the world."

If the U.S. side puts the tariff measures into effect, China will be forced to take necessary countermeasures, Gao said.

"China is fully prepared, determined and able to safeguard its own legitimate rights and interests."
 
let's wait and see if it happens what's described in the last paragraph of
China lashes out at Donald Trump’s claims it reneged on trade deal and vows to ‘safeguard’ its interests
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OK in case they edited later, it's "However, other means of retaliating exist, such as slow-walking US goods passing through customs and ordering Chinese companies to stop buying US products."

moving to GlobalTimes now ...
 
... wow
Edge in high tech key for China to weather trade war
Source:Global Times Published: 2019/5/9 20:13:40
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With no immediate end in sight to the China-US trade war, China needs to boost its domestic economy to withstand the negative impact of the feud. The key is to retain the vigor and capability of China's high-tech sector.

The recent ups and downs in China-US relations show that the trade war is much more than a trade imbalance between the two countries. Analysts believe that the trade is only a sideshow.

The real intention of the US is to squeeze China's space in new technologies, as we have seen from the intense US political pressure on Chinese tech giant Huawei.

James Andrew Lewis, senior vice president and director of Technology Policy Program at the Center for Strategic & International Studies, noted that the modern levers of power are no longer territory or resources that empires of the past times engaged in battles to vie for. Nowadays, it is all about rules, standards and technology.

China has laid out its high-tech ambitions and aims to support cutting-edge industries such as AI, 5G communications and clean energy vehicles, which can be new sources of growth for an economy driven by the spirit of entrepreneurship and innovation. As Lewis pointed out, "A country's ability to innovate and produce advanced technologies provides economic strength, military power and an intangible benefit of perceived leadership."

China still lags behind the US in many technology fields including manufacturing, new materials and chips, but China is catching up and closing the gap. That is perhaps what the US, for so long enjoying supremacy, fears. Last year a poll by Axios showed that 51 percent of Americans are concerned by China's technological advancement.

That the US counters China's growing influence is becoming a regular strategy. It remains uncertain how long the fully fledged competition between China and the US will last, but what is for sure is that China must keep on with its high-tech momentum and take the initiative in innovation and competition.

China's system enables the country to concentrate on and prioritize national interests. China should make use of its institutional advantages and mobilize its resources to make breakthroughs in key areas such as AI, 5G and aerospace. More research funds and personnel can be ploughed into these fields. Simply being defensive is not enough for China to safeguard its interests anymore. By improving its competitiveness in the high-tech sector, China can switch from being defensive to active.
 

gelgoog

Brigadier
Registered Member
China should take advantage of this doofus and continue to improve on its technological base while he keeps doing negotiations in bad faith.
He basically wants to ban Huawei products in the US while tangling Chinese companies in a web of intellectual property schemes. The US would earn money in China and could even forbid the manufacture of products in China with no effort on their part. That would allow a massive transfer of wealth.

China should not allow the US to impose their intellectual property laws on them unless the US guarantees Chinese companies can license those patents in a FRAND basis and can export their products unhindered.

They keep talking about the US "advantage" in chips but the US dominance in the semiconductor industry has been eroded for decades. Proof of that is that Intel is no longer #1 in the industry with Samsung having long taken their position. Micron produces subpar products behind the Koreans and even the Japanese. Intel's fabrication facilities lag behind in process technology to TSMC in scrappy Taiwan. That is the "advantage" the US has in semiconductors. Hot air. Forget anything that is capital intensive like factories. What the US thrives on is software and other low capital investment enterprises. I think in the future China will dominate in hardware and eventually India might dominate in software. Mostly because of their advantage in terms of the English language.

The US can continue doing Hollywood movies and Games of Thrones while binging on GMO foodstuffs.
 
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