To address its own and country biggest weakness, Huawei must advance its chip manufacturing.

tower9 said:

I think you misunderstood me. China's development is largely due to China's own efforts. China focused on development like a maniac, while the US self-sabotaged itself by its lack of focus and distractions in the Middle East.

What I am referring to when I am talking about relative benefits is strictly limited to the US-China relationship. Look, if you compare what both gained from the relationship, China's gains has VASTLY outnumbered America's gains. Of course, China's cheap labor and markets have tremendously benefited American corporations. As far as the American people and the relative power of the US? Not so much. If you do not understand this, you won't understand why Trump's message is so powerful or why he still has so much support even though he acts like a maniac.

China has DEEPLY benefited from its interactions with the US. China 40 years ago was a backward, communist, hell hole. Today it is the second superpower. Tell me, what has the US learned from China compared to what China has learned from the US? Literally China has taught the US NOTHING, while the US has taught China a MAJORITY of what it needed to develop. Where will China be today if it weren't for the millions of Chinese educated in MIT, Harvard, Yale, Stanford, UC Berkeley, UCLA, Cal Tech, etc etc?

If the US never engaged with China, it's GDP will be smaller, it's corporations wouldn't be as rich, but relatively it will still be unchallengeable. It will also have more of its industrial supply chain at home.

You can dislike what I'm saying, but you know it's the truth.

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That's fallacy also.

Internet plays much powerful role than those US institutions you talk about. People learn things through internet,every school has lectures placed on line. You don't need to go there. Alot of info in Internet more so than any those institution.

China needs to pay 4 to 5 times to lure Taiwanese and Korean engineers to develop their chip industry. There are almost 3000 of them in China.

So, your idea of China gain from US is off.

tower9 said:

No doubt. As a Chinese American who's traveled to Asia quite a bit, I've been deeply exposed to both sides. For many years, I would hear Americans joke about China like it's a joke and inside I would only think, "Well, you'll see one day and you won't be laughing anymore."

Honestly, Joe Biden would be a dream come true for China. He'll continue a long line of self deluded neoliberal American presidents who love the smell of their own self righteous farts. He'll joke about China being an actual competitor and he'll lecture China about human rights like it was a misbehaving child.

Trump, in contrast, is the first American president to deeply respect China. He sees China as not only an equal but an extremely powerful competitor, that will overpower the US if he doesn't urgently do something about it. In other words, Trump is awake to China whereas most American politicians were sleeping. That's why he's so scary to China's government because it's like the Chinese were Ninjas creeping through the night, waiting to steal the crown, and now Trump has shone a major foghorn light on them.

China's only hope is that Trump is distracted by the chaos of American politics and is forced to compromise to an extent, then is voted out of office. Otherwise, it is going to be a nightmarish next 6 years for China, and if they want to be No. 1, they are going to have to bleed and fight for the crown. Otherwise they don't deserve it.

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I think you give Trump too much credit. A more cunning neocon would have been able to do much more damage. He's pissing off America's closest allies by threatening tariffs and the dismantling of NATO. The Germans, French, and Dutch publicly stated that they would not exclude Huawei. I think any other politician would have been able to get the Europeans on board with excluding Huawei, but Trump blundered that.

Trump also risks a war with Iran which would hand the 21st century to China. He could have stayed in the nuclear deal and not signal to the rest of the world that America won't keep its word depending on who gets elected. Iran isn't a threat to America, but antagonizing them with sanctions pushes them into a corner. If they feel they have nothing left to lose, the Iranian leaders might lash out and force America to waste a few trillion dollars on another Middle East quagmire.

tidalwave said:

That's fallacy also.

Internet plays much powerful role than those US institutions you talk about. People learn things through internet,every school has lectures placed on line. You don't need to go there. Alot of info in Internet more so than any those institution.

China needs to pay 4 to 5 times to lure Taiwanese and Korean engineers to develop their chip industry. There are almost 3000 of them in China.

So, your idea of China gain from US is off.

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Again, you are misunderstanding me. You think I am saying that most of China's development is due to the US. That is not what I am saying.

I am saying if you compare the benefits of both sides in the US-China relationship, China has benefited far more than the US. I don't know how you can really deny this. Learning from the US has fundamentally transformed China. You can't say that for the other way around. The US has been the teacher.

Majority of the current 5 G product China rolled out still has 75 % US components.

Yeah Huawei has some own CPU there, sure but 75% dependence is no no.

So STop talking cutting edge.
Stop talking market dominace
Stop talking state of art

tower9 said:

Again, you are misunderstanding me. You think I am saying that most of China's development is due to the US. That is not what I am saying.

I am saying if you compare the benefits of both sides in the US-China relationship, China has benefited far more than the US. I don't know how you can really deny this. Learning from the US has fundamentally transformed China. You can't say that for the other way around. The US has been the teacher.

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China can learn from Taiwan, Korea, European, Israel, Ukraine alot of overlap with what US knows.

China gained mostly from opening up to the whole world rather than US exclusively

Bob Smith said:

I think you give Trump too much credit. A more cunning neocon would have been able to do much more damage. He's pissing off America's closest allies by threatening tariffs and the dismantling of NATO. The Germans, French, and Dutch publicly stated that they would not exclude Huawei. I think any other politician would have been able to get the Europeans on board with excluding Huawei, but Trump blundered that.

Trump also risks a war with Iran which would hand the 21st century to China. He could have stayed in the nuclear deal and not signal to the rest of the world that America won't keep its word depending on who gets elected. Iran isn't a threat to America, but antagonizing them with sanctions pushes them into a corner. If they feel they have nothing left to lose, the Iranian leaders might lash out and force America to waste a few trillion dollars on another Middle East quagmire.

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No, a neocon would be far more focused on regime change. They'd probably drag us into another crazy war in the Middle East. That would be a dream come true for China, if the US would produce a GWB Part 2.

Trump isn't going to war with Iran. I do agree it's foolish for him to even focus on Iran, but somehow he's managed to be focused on economically defeating China while still being beholden to Israel, the KSA and AIPAC in foolishly antagonizing Iran. But Trump's made it clear he doesn't want to go to war with Iran. He is just using Bolton to scare Iran so he can bully it into a corner and force them to sign a worse deal than what they signed with Obama.

tidalwave said:

China can learn from Taiwan, Korea, European, Israel, Ukraine.

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Well, China has learned from all those countries. But it's learned the most from the US.

tidalwave said:

Majority of the current 5 G product China rolled out still has 75 % US components.

Yeah Huawei has some own CPU there, sure but 75% dependence is no no.

So STop talking cutting edge.
Stop talking market dominace
Stop talking state of art

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100% agreed. That's why Xi Jinping should've shut up 5 years ago. It's too late now, his ass is set on fire by Trump.

tower9 said:

I honestly think Xi Jinping is one of the most foolish and self-absorbed leaders in modern Chinese history. He is a power hungry narcissist, and loves to project an image of power and control. But by constantly announcing how China will dominate the future technologies of the world, he had zero foresight into what kind of reaction this would provoke from the US. Now he's learning.

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He made a mistake. India started blabbing about Made in India 2030 and the reception was largely positive but he forgot that China is feared and India is not. He did the same thing and got a completely opposite result. All of China learned a lesson from that one but that is the past and now they every Chinese person's support. Blame game doesn't do anybody any good... except the opposing team.

tower9 said:

Unfortunately, I think this is a very common problem among Chinese people, from China. They have very little understanding of foreign cultures, very little ability to communicate and represent themselves in an effective or positive manner, and very little ability to understand how their behavior is judged by foreign people. This is why Chinese tourists are disliked by most countries, and why in cities like Vancouver where there are large numbers of Chinese nationals, they are generally deeply disliked by the locals. I don't know why other Asian countries like Japanese, Thais, etc do not have this problem. They are far more sensitive to how they are perceived.

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Well, China is a very new entrant onto the world economic stage. Chinese people are still starstruck by the prospect of having money so they think that anybody spending money should be treated like a god. Plus, it's natural that when you see droves of people from the opposing team learning and enjoying your society, you are uneasy. The former issue will get better with time, as China matures into a society that is no longer obsessed with just money but personal excellence. The latter will get worse, before it gets better after it settles to the Americans that they are now number 2 and it's no shame because there are 340 million Americans and 1.4 billion Chinese.

tower9 said:

I think that if we went back in time and for some reason, Chiang Kai Shek and the KMT won the civil war, China's fate would've been very secure. Life would've been very comfortable for China as America's No. 1 ally. Eventually, China would've outgrown the US and maybe today it would be the largest superpower, but it would've been a far smoother ride. Actually, I'm surprised it's been so smooth thus far even with China being a communist nation and opposed to most of American foreign policy. That's why I think Trump's actions are actually far more logical than other past US presidents.

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The bottom line is, if you are on course to be stronger than the US, you will be its enemy. If you do not threaten its throne, you will have its support. If Chiang's democratic China rose too fast, America would find a way to cripple it like it did Japan. It has nothing to do with ideology; America fears strength in a competitor so they will find every reason to hate it.

tower9 said:

Obviously, as a Chinese American, I wish we had a world where China and the US are best friends. But I know that'll never happen. The best possible outcome is for the China and the US to have a controlled rivalry. Now I don't even know if that's possible.

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I don't want to be friends with people who act like that LOL. Is that the best outcome? I think the best outcome is when China breaks through all of America's tricks to contain it, then runs away with the number 1 prize never to look back. Then America will slowly accept its fading role just like Britain has.

tower9 said:

Well, China has learned from all those countries. But it's learned the most from the US.

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Lol, US pilfered German knowledge after WWII.