The War in the Ukraine

memfisa

Junior Member
Registered Member
With the news of Leopards, (which BTW I am drooling at the thought of finally getting to see them get demolished by an actual military force) i figure this means either the Ukraine has already lost the majority of the scrap metal that's been stolen from western taxpayers, OR the situation on the ground is as grim for the UAF as the Russians are beginning to claim.

These tanks didn't impress vs jihadists in sandals and toyotas, I wonder how they do against attack helicopters and Krasnopol

Also on the subject of reduced artillery from the Russians, i dont know how true that us however from footage I've been seeing it seems to be their artillery has changed to pinpoint accuracy even able to hit moving vehicles.
 
Last edited:

FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
Registered Member
Don't worry about that, just look at the Yemen war. We literally have entire convoys of Abrams and Bradleys destroyed or captured by Houthis. Yet nothing happened since MSM didn't report about it at all.
Russians know how to put on a show. Remember Russian gas channel? I eagerly await new Amazon store, "Genuine Bradley Parts, Quality Not Guaranteed"
 

gelgoog

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
just taking the Russian Defence Ministry's statements at face value is a bit naïve (as is its Ukrainian counterpart's statement at face value) ....
You cannot expect any of these numbers to be reliable even if they aren't being colored. From experience in past conflicts you can never trust estimates of damages to the other side provided on conflicts. The fog of war is a thing even if they aren't bullshitting.

According to Russian figures, the Ukrainian armed forces have already lost more than their numbers.
I think this is a combination of two things when it happens. First is that the initial Ukrainian resources are not the final ones, not after several rounds of mobilization and weapons deliveries. It is also a bad idea to assume the West is only delivering what they announce they delivered. The second issue is that it is normal for there to be overestimation of damages inflicted in any war.

For more objective information we can refer to Admiral Blezhan's (EU Chief of Staff) hearing before the Defence Committee (16 November). He points out that by early November Russian forces had 60,000 killed and 3 times as many wounded (i.e. + 200,000 men out of action, which is a lot, and more than the commonly quoted figures),
Those numbers of dead are bullshit. If Russia had lost that many soldiers, now that we have social networks like VKontakte, people would have figured it out already. There might be quite a lot of wounded though. Just look at what happened in modern wars like US in Iraq or Afghanistan. Wounded and disabled can be an order of magnitude more in the end.

Russia would have lost 60% of its entire fleet of battle tanks and 70% of its missiles fitted for ground targets. Russia also lost 40% of its armoured personnel carriers and 20% of its artillery. For artillery ammunition stocks, estimates are more complicated. But the volume of Russian fire has dropped
I doubt it. But yes they probably lost hundreds of MBTs and AFVs. The artillery, well, a lot of it might have been lost due to wear and tear.

significantly in recent months (down by a factor of 3), and more and more reports from the Russian front indicate a lack of fire support, both in volume, accuracy and time (time needed for counter-battery). Even ultras such as Girkin emphasise that the Russian troops are severely lacking in artillery.
It could not possibly be the Russians were conserving ammo and supplies before a major offensive. Now could it.

And France has just announced that it will supply the Ukrainians with AMX 10RC (without specifying exactly how many). Even if these wheeled armoured vehicles are a bit outdated (or even very outdated...) and their 105mm cannon is not the most suitable for anti-tank combat, it remains that this equipment, if used well (in "hit and run", or in flanking fire) can be effective.
No it cannot. It lacks gun stabilization, so it is pretty much useless for hit and run tactics. Plus the ammo it uses is some special French type no one else uses. Must be great for logistics.

Above all, this is the first European delivery of armoured fighting vehicles to Ukraine (previously it was either artillery or troop transport), so there is a growing force and, above all, pressure on the Germans to deliver Leopards to Ukraine.
They had already sent Ukraine BMPs. The Polish, Czech/Slovaks, and former East German ones I think. Several hundred.

With the colder weather setting in in Ukraine from Saturday and the ground frozen over, offensives will again be possible. The question is, where will the Ukrainians strike?
The ground is frozen over sure, but wheeled vehicles will have way less mobility than tracked ones, and it looks to me like Ukraine lost most of its tracked vehicles by this point. They would have better chances in the summer I think. Like the fast offensive they made in Kharkov. But then again that offensive in Kharkov only worked because of lack of use of air forces and troops by the Russians.
 

tabu

Junior Member
Registered Member
Since news and analysis is available on websites that everyone considers reliable, I will limit myself to some personal considerations.

The eventual fall of Soledar would be a defeat, certainly more symbolic and propagandistic than having real strategic value, but certainly a defeat given the forces Ukraine has put up to defend it (excessive, according to some analysts).

The same can be said of the possible fall of Bakhmut. Although the attackers almost always take more casualties than the defenders, and in part it is also a nasty war of attrition. However, it is on the Donbass front where the fighting has been concentrated over the last month and conclusions should be drawn/adopted accordingly. I wouldn't shake my head until it's broken. Obviously, those shaking their heads are the troops on the battlefield, not me or others sitting in their chairs, i.e. sofa experts. That is why although I comment a lot, I at least try to keep myself informed and not stick my head in the sand. I am not a decision maker and I am not a current military expert.

On the other hand, German political and military leaders leave me, to put it mildly, somewhat bewildered.

Compared with a certain sobriety in the comments of our government, however strongly it condemns the invasion of Ukraine, the actions are sluggish. All of Germany's actions are to me a belated and rather stingy help.

In place of Surovikin, who had only been appointed on 8 October and who admittedly seemed more capable than his predecessors (at least he avoided another massacre of Russians in Kherson), comes Gerasimov, notoriously untalented. Surovikin himself, however, remains among the deputies. Lapin, who, according to Russian millbloggers, is somewhere between incompetent, like Cadorna, and a pure coward, is promoted.

Prigozhin claims exceptional success for Soledar with his Wagnerian goons.

Other rabble-rousers like Girkin or the Chechens are pawing at the background.

All of these men would be happier to slaughter each other (in the past their subordinates have done so materially) than to fight the Ukrainians.

The lack of coordination between the various units of the regular Russian army, the Wagner, the separatist territorial forces and others like the Chechen thugs and above all the little man in Kremlin has already led to several defeats and tens of thousands of casualties among the motley crew.

As a rule, when internal factions start fighting each other (a situation which has happened very often in the past), it is the beginning of the end.
 

Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
Ka-52 killing it a number of times. Not sure what ATGM is used.


A hit on a warehouse either by a LMUR or Kh-39.


A Ukrainian Grad MLRS taken out by a Lancet.


2S1 Gvozdika destroyed by Lancet. Used by the Soviet Army, this SPG is widely used by both Russia and Ukraine and are manufactured by Kharkhiv Tractor Works.


Downed MiG-29. We are seeing a large surge of kills against the Ukrainian Air Force of late. Is this because of MiG-31? Su-35? Or even Su-57?

 

baykalov

Senior Member
Registered Member
In a WSJ article today, a Ukrainian commander admits that Ukraine has lost more soldier lives than Russia:

Western—and some Ukrainian—officials, soldiers and analysts increasingly worry that Kyiv has allowed itself to be sucked into the battle for Bakhmut on Russian terms, losing the forces it needs for a planned spring offensive as it stubbornly clings to a town of limited strategic relevance. Some of them say that it would make sense to retreat to a new defensive line on the heights west of Bakhmut while such a pullback can still be organized in a coordinated fashion, preserving the Ukrainian military’s combat strength.
“It’s not me, it’s King Leonidas who figured out that you should fight the enemy on the terrain that is advantageous to you,” said one Ukrainian commander in Bakhmut, referring to the ruler of Sparta who battled the Persian Empire at Thermopylae. “So far, the exchange rate of trading our lives for theirs favors the Russians. If this goes on like this, we could run out.”


Many stupid things are done in war, this video from the Ukrainian side confirms it:

 

emblem21

Major
Registered Member

This is quite scary if these loses are actually true because for whatever strikes that Ukraine manages get into Russia, the loses that get helped up against the Ukrainians is simply many times worst, that this is just Soledar. Just try to imagine Bakmut and imagine the amount of resources sent to that city to keep the fight going for the Ukrainians there and just what kind of loses that could taking place there. This is something that should scare people, because I seriously do wonder, does NATO have the guts to fight a real war like that
 

Biscuits

Colonel
Registered Member
Since news and analysis is available on websites that everyone considers reliable, I will limit myself to some personal considerations.

The eventual fall of Soledar would be a defeat, certainly more symbolic and propagandistic than having real strategic value, but certainly a defeat given the forces Ukraine has put up to defend it (excessive, according to some analysts).

The same can be said of the possible fall of Bakhmut. Although the attackers almost always take more casualties than the defenders, and in part it is also a nasty war of attrition. However, it is on the Donbass front where the fighting has been concentrated over the last month and conclusions should be drawn/adopted accordingly. I wouldn't shake my head until it's broken. Obviously, those shaking their heads are the troops on the battlefield, not me or others sitting in their chairs, i.e. sofa experts. That is why although I comment a lot, I at least try to keep myself informed and not stick my head in the sand. I am not a decision maker and I am not a current military expert.

On the other hand, German political and military leaders leave me, to put it mildly, somewhat bewildered.

Compared with a certain sobriety in the comments of our government, however strongly it condemns the invasion of Ukraine, the actions are sluggish. All of Germany's actions are to me a belated and rather stingy help.

In place of Surovikin, who had only been appointed on 8 October and who admittedly seemed more capable than his predecessors (at least he avoided another massacre of Russians in Kherson), comes Gerasimov, notoriously untalented. Surovikin himself, however, remains among the deputies. Lapin, who, according to Russian millbloggers, is somewhere between incompetent, like Cadorna, and a pure coward, is promoted.

Prigozhin claims exceptional success for Soledar with his Wagnerian goons.

Other rabble-rousers like Girkin or the Chechens are pawing at the background.

All of these men would be happier to slaughter each other (in the past their subordinates have done so materially) than to fight the Ukrainians.

The lack of coordination between the various units of the regular Russian army, the Wagner, the separatist territorial forces and others like the Chechen thugs and above all the little man in Kremlin has already led to several defeats and tens of thousands of casualties among the motley crew.

As a rule, when internal factions start fighting each other (a situation which has happened very often in the past), it is the beginning of the end.
Your problem is that you get your info from sources that are completely dogshit. Like those Ukranian government sources that claim 13000 losses and 100 000 for Russia.

Have you ever thought that maybe the German government is sluggish because the situation on the ground simply isn't as good as German public news claims? That they're not rushing into a war where they have no advantage, because all these claimed massacres of tens of thousands of Russians are vaporware, spurred on by US government clowns like Oryx that counts each destroyed tank 5 times?

Have you thought that there is a reason when the Ukrainian citizen is taken for their mobilisation, we can see that many of them are not happy? If things are as your sources claim, why do they not want to go to Bakhmut, where fighting is only symbolic, a turkey shoot against ill equipped Wagner thugs?

Is it because they do not want to join the glorious victory parade? Or because they on the ground realize facts which those US government mouthpieces don't name to the citizens of the EU?

Interesting that after 13 rounds of mobilization, losses of merely ten thousand and Russian losses of "many tens of thousands", Ukraine is still fighting set piece battles involving tens of thousands on both sides and losing, against (in your own words) Chechen thugs, Wagner and "the little man in Kremlin". The sluggish movement of Ukraine is perplexing indeed.


With the news of Leopards, (which BTW I am drooling at the thought of finally getting to see them get demolished by an actual military force) i figure this means either the Ukraine has already lost the majority of the scrap metal that's been stolen from western taxpayers, OR the situation on the ground is as grim for the UAF as the Russians are beginning to claim.

These tanks didn't impress vs jihadists in sandals and toyotas, I wonder how they do against attack helicopters and Krasnopol

Also on the subject of reduced artillery from the Russians, i dont know how true that us however from footage I've been seeing it seems to be their artillery has changed to pinpoint accuracy even able to hit moving vehicles.
The basic leopard 2 is going to be really terrible. It's even bigger than a T-72 and it's armor is around the same. There's a reason jihadists made a mockery out of them.

Such tanks only work if you heavily support them with infantry, artillery and air power, to ensure they can keep a distance and work undisturbed from atgm and artillery. (this is also true for the Russian T72M1)

Now if Germany gives 2A7A1, that's a different beast. Much improved armor and mounted active protection system. This thing is to a turkey leopard 2 like T-90M is to T-72. It can operate way more independently and it can conceivably win skirmishes against the most models of Russian tanks.

However, the 2A7A1 upgrade packages are afaik not existing in very large numbers at all. And its safe to say any donation below 100 tanks will have very niche use at best.


MOD EDIT: Combined 2 back to back posts. Please use the multi-qoute reply option next time.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Top