The War in the Ukraine

plawolf said:

To be fair to the Russians, they probably have plenty of Krasnopols in the field, it’s the laser designators that’s probably the bottleneck.

The Soviets developed Krasnopol to help their armoured spearheads punch through NATO lines, so they were expecting their armour and motorised infantry to paint choice targets for Krasnopols.

They never really developed or invested much in the way to paint targets behind the frontlines since back in the day the vast soviet tank armies were expected to just blitz right through NATO lines without getting bogged down. Besides, NATO was expected to win the air war, so why spend more on ‘soft’ aero assets that are likely to be shot down as soon as they appear on the battlefield?

It just so happens that in Ukraine, Russian tanks have little to no problem killing Ukrainian armour with their main guns, so very little need to wait for Krasnopols.

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Nonetheless, I can't help but be impressed by the effectiveness of the drone lased Krasnopol system.

Recent conflicts have been quite thought provoking on the relevance of unmanned surveillance platforms (primarily UAVs). While the likes of MALE might require more air dominance to survive, a small tactical drone like Orlan-10 or even smaller is broadening the possibilities in which laser designated platforms like Krasnopol can perform in.

Whether the sporadic of employment of Krasnopol in Ukraine is due to low numbers, distribution or lack of designators ... it'd be interesting to see how awider adoption can flourish

Heliox said:

Nonetheless, I can't help but be impressed by the effectiveness of the drone lased Krasnopol system.

Recent conflicts have been quite thought provoking on the relevance of unmanned surveillance platforms (primarily UAVs). While the likes of MALE might require more air dominance to survive, a small tactical drone like Orlan-10 or even smaller is broadening the possibilities in which laser designated platforms like Krasnopol can perform in.

Whether the sporadic of employment of Krasnopol in Ukraine is due to low numbers, distribution or lack of designators ... it'd be interesting to see how awider adoption can flourish

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Personally i feel laser guided rounds like Krasnopol are a bit of a dead-end tech in that it has pretty much reached the limits of development potential and is still somewhat suboptimal. The kill chain is overly long, and it requires active laser painting of the target, which can trip any half decent self defence suit.

I am pretty sure the Russians have equivalents to the US CBU97 and 105s sensor fused munitions (SFM) which have artillery delivery options.

For the world, I cannot work out why they are not deploying and using them in Ukraine.

A salvo of SFMs will absolutely curbstomp entire enemy armoured formations, even when dispersed in attack formation. Yet the Russians are still taking pot shots with unguided rounds, with the usually low returns on rounds expended as you would expect.

plawolf said:

Personally i feel laser guided rounds like Krasnopol are a bit of a dead-end tech in that it has pretty much reached the limits of development potential and is still somewhat suboptimal. The kill chain is overly long, and it requires active laser painting of the target, which can trip any half decent self defence suit.

I am pretty sure the Russians have equivalents to the US CBU97 and 105s sensor fused munitions (SFM) which have artillery delivery options.

For the world, I cannot work out why they are not deploying and using them in Ukraine.

A salvo of SFMs will absolutely curbstomp entire enemy armoured formations, even when dispersed in attack formation. Yet the Russians are still taking pot shots with unguided rounds, with the usually low returns on rounds expended as you would expect.

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There are a lot of targets of opportunity a few klicks behind the line of contact that don't necessarily have RWR. How is the kill chain long if the drone is organic to the artillery unit?

I agree with your previous statement that one of the bottlenecks of laser guided rounds is the difficulty of getting the target lased, especially those not on the front lines. Expensive aircraft/Helos? Vulnerable Cdo behind lines?

The difference is I think you're thinking of solutions for the point where everything smashes together and where you need mass solutions for the target saturated environ, while I'm thinking of the immediate rear area and denying the opfor freedom to move , support and resupply. Those immediate rear areas either involve putting Cdo units behind lines and at risk or putting aviation assets over manpad/shorad zones.

sheogorath said:

What do you think it is the point of things like the Griffin or the Type 15?.



Because Russia still had NATO itching for a fight despite the fall of the Soviet Union, and while the T-62 might be good enough, it obviously isn't enough against Leopards 2 and M1.



The T-62M has better add-on armor than Ukrane's T-72M received from Poland, Bulgaria and the Czechs. Let's not forget that T-72M actually have thinner and not-as-good composite armor as the T-72A's.

View attachment 100181

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All that remains is to find all those thermal imagers, laser rangefinders and so on and so on and so forth.
The T-62s have only been brought up because their scopes are more "survivable" after many years of Russian "storage" and operate on slightly different principles than the T-72/80/90 which have the same "scope" with minor modifications. The stored T-72s have all this goodness trivially rotted away.

sheogorath said:

View attachment 100182

For comparison, this is the glacis of a polish T-72M

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Here you can see a T-62M getting hit with an ATGM over one of the composite add-ons with the crew surviving and making an escape

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/828311047945723905

So, considering that the Ukranians don't have modern APFSDS rounds in any of their tanks, in certain scenarios a T-62 might be good enough. And a T-62M with upgraded thermals and rangefinders will have a detection advantage over Ukraine's T-72M and what's left of the T-64 fleet outside of the Bulats.

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This is not a matter of armor but rather of composition. The cumulative jet penetrates the armor with practically no secondary fragments flying out. And if it did not hit a crew member or ammunition, the result will be like in the video.

VKS CAS support in Lisichansk

Russia is visually confirmed to have lost over 25% of its total operational Ka-52 helicopter fleet, according to the UK Ministry of Defense (MoD).

The last intelligence update said there had been at least 23 verified losses of Russia's Ka-52 Alligator attack helicopter in Ukraine since the invasion.

“This represents over 25% of the Russian Air Force’s in-service fleet of 90 Ka-52s, and nearly half of Russia’s total helicopter losses in Ukraine,” the MoD said.

According to a report, Russian attack helicopters have likely suffered particular attrition from man-portable air defense systems (MANPADS), while Ukrainian the helicopters frequently operate with less consistent top-cover from combat jets than they would expect under Russian military doctrine.

Has there been any confirmation about the report, ehm, twitter post I should say, from a few pages back that wagner was "destroyed" and got "completely slaughtered," or are we just simmering along with usual carnage on ukrainian advances and low effort propaganda so far?

I havent seen much other than really bizzare propaganda through pro ukraine TG channels, some weird outlandish bottom of the barrel stuff, and then pretty quiet from pro Russian ones beyond the usual footage of smashed armoured vehicles probing Russian lines and some east west nuclear dildo measuring contest

Feels a bit eerie

memfisa said:

Has there been any confirmation about the report, ehm, twitter post I should say, from a few pages back that wagner was "destroyed" and got "completely slaughtered," or are we just simmering along with usual carnage on ukrainian advances and low effort propaganda so far?

I havent seen much other than really bizzare propaganda through pro ukraine TG channels, some weird outlandish bottom of the barrel stuff, and then pretty quiet from pro Russian ones beyond the usual footage of smashed armoured vehicles probing Russian lines and some east west nuclear dildo measuring contest

Feels a bit eerie

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It's mud season, neither side can make big pushes at the moment.
Russians are doing something though, I'm just not sure what. You can tell from things like Kherson where they've pulled out the VDV and instead creating territorial defense units, they are probably putting fresh mobilized troops there for defense. It may be the same in the east with those new defense lines filled with dragon teeth.

So if the defense lines are starting to be filled by rear echelon troops while the elite units are being pulled away to unknown location this suggests to me Russians are planning an offensive action once the ground freezes over. What doesn't make sense to me is where it will happen. The only thing that makes sense to me is way up north from Belarus border towards Kiev, but if that was the case we should be hearing more noises from AFU given NATO ISR should pick up movements on that scale, but nothing.

If we take Stalingrad as a model then Russians might try to attack somewhere from Zaporizhzhia Oblast with the aim of encircling that 40,000 strong AFU formation near Kherson, but surely such a grand maneuver is beyond Russian army at this stage.

Sinnavuuty said:

Russia is visually confirmed to have lost over 25% of its total operational Ka-52 helicopter fleet, according to the UK Ministry of Defense (MoD).

The last intelligence update said there had been at least 23 verified losses of Russia's Ka-52 Alligator attack helicopter in Ukraine since the invasion.

“This represents over 25% of the Russian Air Force’s in-service fleet of 90 Ka-52s, and nearly half of Russia’s total helicopter losses in Ukraine,” the MoD said.

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"Visually confirmed" usually means Team Ghouta dubious tallies.

That said, if we assume the numbers are accurate the numbers are "low" relative to the amount of sorties they carry out and the amount of MANPADS available to Ukraine.

For comparison, the Muhjaideens received between 500 to 900 Stingers during the course of the Afghan war. So it seems Vitebsk is a rather effective system so maybe the Russians will stop being so stingy with it and put it in every system out there

tabu said:

All that remains is to find all those thermal imagers, laser rangefinders and so on and so on and so forth.

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We have seen a few T-62's with thermals, and the M's already have laser rangefinders, that little box on top of the gun

tabu said:

The T-62s have only been brought up because their scopes are more "survivable" after many years of Russian "storage" and operate on slightly different principles than the T-72/80/90 which have the same "scope" with minor modifications

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As said, the T-62M come with rangefinders. And no, they don't use the same sights of the T-72/T-80/T-90.

There are differences even within the T-72, T-80 and T-90 batches themselves and it is one of the reason why many people use "obr. XXXX" to help with differentiation so I'm not sure what you are on about

tabu said:

And if it did not hit a crew member or ammunition, the result will be like in the video

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If it had gone through, even without hitting anybody directly, the spall and jet fragments would have wounded or killed them, so no, it didn't penetrate the armor.

What's up with Kadyrov today? He seems pretty pissed off. On his TG channel, which i wont repeat here because in western democracy im not sure any longer its even legal to share official words from the other side, but hes going as far as mentioning jihad in the lands of the satanic followers

Somebody obviously made some kind of miscalculation and pissed this guy off, hes not the kind of guy I would be messing with tbh. I really hope we don't start seeing head chopping again.

I knew it felt eerie and quiet for a reason

memfisa said:

I havent seen much other than really bizzare propaganda through pro ukraine TG channels, some weird outlandish bottom of the barrel stuff, and then pretty quiet from pro Russian ones beyond the usual footage of smashed armoured vehicles probing Russian lines and some east west nuclear dildo measuring contest

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Latest map from Rybar doesn't seem to show any sign of a cauldron in Bakhmut



There does seem to be two Russians counteroffensives around Pisky and and Terny