The War in the Ukraine

sheogorath

sheogorath

Colonel
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MarKoz81 said:
This should not be misunderstood as NATO having all pilots properly trained but as NATO having their trained pilots fully familiar with modern tactics while VKS trained pilots are fully familair with Russian/Soviet tactics and depend on individual skill to match the opponent. NATO has therefore a decisive skill overmatch on average.
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Does that training takes into account going against an extensive air defense network with early warning radars?. Also since your scenario involves the unlikely fantasy of all NATO members agreeing to Article 5, then you need to add China into your calculations as they will get involved one way or the other.

Though at the end of the day, high tempo operations against weddings, Doctor without Borders hospitals and farms don't really amount to much in conventional warfare and NATO massive gaps in air defense equipment of its own means they can't properly train against it either.




tabu said:
Do you understand the depth of the asshole Russia is in?
The superpower is begging for mopeds from Iran. Launches a program to "revive the T 62". Calling up the mobilized and arming them with three-liners and AKMs.
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Last time I checked, the ones begging 24/7 for stuff ain't the Russians, also kudos to the Russians for being able fill up gaps in their equipment quickly because it turns out the Ukranians can't handle the Iranian mopeds.

T-62 make sense as replenishment equipment for the rear echelons to free up T-72 and other vehicles, though in some aspects, the T-62M are better than Ukraine's polish T-72M, having a range finder a modernized ballistic computer.

That said, the only source of the "800 T-62" is a State Duma politician talking about a version of the T-62 that doesn't exist(Javelin protection, reinforced rear armor and will require development from the ground up,) so he might as well be trolling or just wishful thinkin as he isn't the one with a final say.
This is the same State Duma representatives that said Russia wouldn't invade, nor would annex Donetsk and Luhansk.

Pretty sure these dudes are training with AK-12 pattern rifles, not AKM's
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Meanwhile, Ukranians are being trained with Yugoslavian AK47 clones in England. Its mostly the mercs and nationalist battallions toting around AR pattern rifles

You need to do better than to repeat the NAFO incels talking points. This isn't twitter and we aren't that gullible.
 
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pmc

Colonel
Registered Member
Atomicfrog said:
Anyway, whatever the issue of the war, Nato is inflicting decades of damage to Russian equipments and stockpiles while using Ukrainian soldiers and mostly old surplus equipments. Going a level higher in involvement is to commit mostly everyone to armageddon and it's nonsense.
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Ukraine land for agro is so important now that denying it to some one else is worth more than getting rid of most cold war relic equipment.

The only thing interesting from from General interview was use of 7,000 air lunched guided missiles from strategic and tactical aviation.
since most of tactical aviation is Su-25/attack choppers we can presume majority of those 7,000 are long range weapons.
this in addition to ground and sea launched missiles. I doubt any one has industrial capacity to make so many missiles and launch them.
 
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Anlsvrthng

Captain
Registered Member
Atomicfrog said:
Anyway, whatever the issue of the war, Nato is inflicting decades of damage to Russian equipments and stockpiles while using Ukrainian soldiers and mostly old surplus equipments. Going a level higher in involvement is to commit mostly everyone to armageddon and it's nonsense.
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And the destruction of the biggest NATO alligned army , the ukrainan one, and the biggest non Russian IADS in Europe, the Ukrainan one.


There is two side, as Ukraine gone Europe will stand face to face the now angry Russia, backed by China and Iran.

Wow, what an accident, the two biggest Natural Gas production country + the biggest economy on the earth.
 
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Surpluswarrior

Junior Member
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tabu said:
What new forces?
Do you understand the depth of the asshole Russia is in?
The superpower is begging for mopeds from Iran. Launches a program to "revive the T 62". Calling up the mobilized and arming them with three-liners and AKMs.
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This is a trash-tier post, and an example of why serious discussion is often lacking in this thread.

MOD COMMENT - if you think this is a "trash-tier post", do not reply to it and report to it. Replies to troll posts only complicates our clean up efforts since we have to clean up replies.

Refurbishing T-62s is a logical choice, and was likely settled upon before the conflict.

T-62s can be easier to train new recruits on (e.g. Donbass militia), especially if they have experience with certain vehicles.

Russia has many T-62s in storage, and plans to refurbish up to 800. This is an operationally significant number. It can also be given away as gifts to Russia's new friends.

T-55s were proven a good infantry-support vehicle in Syria, and T-62 is likely similar. They can be powered-down and used as defensive emplacements. Useful in the defensive. T-62Ms are not much inferior to the T-72M handouts from Poland.

Ukraine is looking at acquiring T-55s right now, to the superior T-62M is not a joke. West is not putting Abrams SEP in Ukraine. No Leopard 1A6 either. Not even 1A4. Maybe Leopard 1.

Ukraine is putting ASU-85 SPG from 1959 in service, as well as cannon and recoilless rockets bolted to utility vehicles. BTR-70 and even BTR-60. So T-62M is like a Tiger II in that context.

Russia is producing new AK rifles, unlike a certain country it is fighting against. Ukraine mobilized have been seen, on video, with faulty AKs [often given to Territorial militias], and malfunctioning DP machineguns from WWII. Not to mention Maxim-style MGs from WWII. Russian troops are seen in the field with the full array of small-arms, including the latest sniper rifles.

The "mopeds from Iran" have absolutely changed morale in Ukraine and their PR messaging. These $8-20,000 mopeds are making Ukraine waste its last, scarce SAMs that cost many times more. They are actively and visibly degrading Ukraine's air defense network. Many countries in the world would love to have those "mopeds" [and not Turkish Bayraktars.]

But this kind of garbage propaganda from the West, being asserted as fact, is why this thread often degenerates into mudslinging and insults. And it's a reflection of the absolutely decadent state of Western politics and its completely fraudulent media.
 
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Broccoli

Broccoli

Senior Member
Surpluswarrior said:
This is a trash-tier post, and an example of why serious discussion is often lacking in this thread.

Refurbishing T-62s is a logical choice, and was likely settled upon before the conflict.

T-62s can be easier to train new recruits on (e.g. Donbass militia), especially if they have experience with certain vehicles.

Russia has many T-62s in storage, and plans to refurbish up to 800. This is an operationally significant number. It can also be given away as gifts to Russia's new friends.

T-55s were proven a good infantry-support vehicle in Syria, and T-62 is likely similar. They can be powered-down and used as defensive emplacements. Useful in the defensive. T-62Ms are not much inferior to the T-72M handouts from Poland.

Ukraine is looking at acquiring T-55s right now, to the superior T-62M is not a joke. West is not putting Abrams SEP in Ukraine. No Leopard 1A6 either. Not even 1A4. Maybe Leopard 1.

Ukraine is putting ASU-85 SPG from 1959 in service, as well as cannon and recoilless rockets bolted to utility vehicles. BTR-70 and even BTR-60. So T-62M is like a Tiger II in that context.

Russia is producing new AK rifles, unlike a certain country it is fighting against. Ukraine mobilized have been seen, on video, with faulty AKs [often given to Territorial militias], and malfunctioning DP machineguns from WWII. Not to mention Maxim-style MGs from WWII. Russian troops are seen in the field with the full array of small-arms, including the latest sniper rifles.

The "mopeds from Iran" have absolutely changed morale in Ukraine and their PR messaging. These $8-20,000 mopeds are making Ukraine waste its last, scarce SAMs that cost many times more. They are actively and visibly degrading Ukraine's air defense network. Many countries in the world would love to have those "mopeds" [and not Turkish Bayraktars.]

But this kind of garbage propaganda from the West, being asserted as fact, is why this thread often degenerates into mudslinging and insults. And it's a reflection of the absolutely decadent state of Western politics and its completely fraudulent media.
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I think it's more telling about Russian propaganda as it's of then marketed that Russian military has up to 13.000 tanks in storage, around 7000 are supposedly different T-72 variants, but they clearly reality isn't that since we see more and more antiquated trucks and tanks from 1960s put into service.

We're gone from "Russia has almost unlimited supplies of at least somewhat modern equipment" to "T-62 is actually pretty good tank".
 
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Surpluswarrior

Junior Member
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Broccoli said:
I think it's more telling about Russian propaganda as it's of then marketed that Russian military has up to 13.000 tanks in storage, around 7000 are supposedly different T-72 variants, but they clearly reality isn't that since we see more and more antiquated trucks and tanks from 1960s put into service.

We're gone from "Russia has almost unlimited supplies of at least somewhat modern equipment" to "T-62 is actually pretty good tank".
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I don't think many people on this forum think Russia is a 'superpower.' So there's not a lot of concern over how it looks to Russia's image if it's pulling out T-62s.

In my view, this whole laughing about Russia putting older units into the field is infantile. Although you are providing a different perspective on it.


This is the largest land conflict of the post-Cold War era [so far].

Equipment is being used up very quickly. So much of the February 2022 Ukraine army is simply gone. Most of the videos I've seen since late summer show NATO donated M113 APCS [first fielded in 1961] and those Polish T-72s. And not in functioning state, you understand.

If this is not the time for T-62, when is? Should they be left to rust, or get useful use against Ukraine 1960s APCs, it's 1950s assault guns, MT-LBs with junkyard cannon mod?

Russia's mid-Cold-War era equipment is perfectly serviceable in Ukraine right now.

Again, Russia can spend money storing and eventually disposing of this equipment. Or they can use it, in a war where fresh equipment is constantly needed.

Meanwhile, Zelensky goes begging around the world every day, cap in hand, for whatever cast-off third rate tanks and APCs someone will donate to Ukraine.

It's sad. Troops are being sent into the front lines inside, or walking behind M-113s. In that environment, a T-62 is far from obsolete.

We don't really know what the state of Russia's armoured reserves are. It's likely that some T-62s are in a higher state of readiness than other reserve equipment. Many were modernized during the 1980s. Others may have been modernized in preparation for shipment to other places.

It's my understanding that the T-62 refurbishment is taking advantage of an additional factory that was not being utilized for T-72/T-80/T-90. That factory may only have been capable of improving T-62 and the like, so it may be a benefit of Russia's mobilization that they can put out more T-62. There are strong economic motivations behind everything that is happening.
 
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Anlsvrthng

Captain
Registered Member
Broccoli said:
Trainload of what look like T-62 tanks, some don't have era, being moved towards Ukraine. Tank designed in late 1950's is becoming soon more common sight among Russian military units.
https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1583512570488532993
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That train contain 8% of the Polish, and 15% of the German tanks.

If these are newly reurbished tanks then the capacity of Russia to remanufacture tanks should be capable to refurbish as much tank as the whole inventory of Germany and Poland in half year time.
 
G

gelgoog

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
MarKoz81 said:
Aircraft in VKS service - end of 2020:

interceptor:
  • 130 MiG-31BM/BSM (W: 24, N: 20, C: 50, E: 36)
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The MiG-31BM is an upgrade which entered service in the late 2000s. It has improved digital avionics more modern than those in Western 1990s fighter aircraft. Even the original MiG-31 had a digital datalink to communicate targets between aircraft. A lot of the flight instruments were replaced with MFDs. But you seem to think it is worse than the Su-27SM3. Whatever.

MarKoz81 said:
air superiority:
  • 24 Su-27SM3 (S: 24)
  • 42 Su-27SM (W: 18, S: 24)
  • 18 Su-33 (N: 18)
  • 19 MiG-29K (N: 19)
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Russia has hundreds more non-upgraded Su-27 and MiG-29 in storage they can pullout and upgrade.

MarKoz81 said:
multirole (air superiority + ground strike)
  • 72 Su-35S (W: 36, E: 36)
  • 92 Su-30S (W: 32, S: 32, E: 30)
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In late 2020 Russia had 98 Su-35S aircraft. And right now they have more than that.
Russia had 117 Su-30SM/SM2 before the conflict started. Including 4 Su-30SM2.

MarKoz81 said:
...
AEW:
  • 12 A-50M
  • 3 A-50U
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More like 7 A-50U aircraft before the war started.
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MarKoz81 said:
...
Confirmed losses in 2022:
  • 1 MiG-31BM
  • 1 Su-35S
  • 11 Su-30SM
  • 16 Su-34
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There are "only" 12 visually confirmed downings of Su-34 aircraft. I won't even bother looking into actual Su-30SM losses which are also bound to be lower. But whatever.

MarKoz81 said:
...
Modern combat training in VKS was impossible before 2012-2013 which means that at first the instructors had to gain experience before the rest of the pilots were trained. This was the main purpose of Syrian campaign. This also means that VKS pilots are not sufficiently trained while in NATO it is standard training since 2000s. This should not be misunderstood as NATO having all pilots properly trained but as NATO having their trained pilots fully familiar with modern tactics while VKS trained pilots are fully familair with Russian/Soviet tactics and depend on individual skill to match the opponent. NATO has therefore a decisive skill overmatch on average.

This explains the abysmal performance of VKS in Ukraine:
  1. The pilots have more modern machines (and more capable compared to UAF) but rely on obsolete tactics because they haven't had the time to develop appropriate ones.
  2. The logistical system of VKS approaches critical failure because Russia has never learnt to sustain air operations of this intensity and duration and must improvise.
  3. Russia has limited ability to pool assets from other districts due to insufficient aerial refueling capability and lack of relevant training.
As for hypothetical conflict with NATO:
  1. ..... Poland, Czechia and Denmark have ~ 100 fighters. USAF has ~ 100 fighters in Europe and can easily deploy another 100. Finland and Sweden which in this scenario already function as part of NATO due to agreements with aforementioned countries signed in 2022 and EU defense clause have ~ 100 fighters.
  2. MiG-31 is a cruise missile hunter and won't be available for other roles in such scenario because of its deployment and tactics.
  3. Other aircraft are just targets as they are relative to NATO assets as Iraqi planes in 1991 vs USAF/USN.
  4. Russian EW systems on all aircraft have been captured four months ago. Counter tactics are being developed but the initial impression is that Russian EW is underwhelming, and would not be a major problem.
  5. Ground air defenses were a problem before February. Now they are well understood to the point where UAF Soviet-era planes are capable of countering them reliably in certain conditions. NATO/USAF knows SEAD. Russia doesn't.
  6. Destroying air bases - Russia had neither capacity or skill to destroy Ukrainian airbases similarly to how it had neither for SEAD. They don't have the munitions for anything other than a single strike and most of those will be shot down. NATO assets will operate from western Europe at +1000km distance enabled by USAF/NATO refuelers as per current doctrine.
  7. NATO has trained for this since 2014. Russia hasn't and focused on psyops with Wunderwaffen. Didn't work vs Ukraine. Won't work vs NATO.
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So let me get this.
- You think Russian pilots cannot fight because they "only" had a decade to train with their new fighters.
- You think the MiG-31 can only be used to intercept cruise missiles.

I will also add that the West has had many, many, years to examine Russian air defense operations in Syria which includes the Tor, Pantsir, and S-400. Russian EW has been exported to Western friendly nations like Malaysia and there is little evidence the systems Russia itself uses are substantially dissimilar. And yet when the conflict started the Western military did not want to even try to impose an air exclusion zone over Ukraine. Guess why? You seem to think learning things which were already known makes some kind of difference. Well it does not.

And good luck operating from 1000km distance bases when systems like the Kinzhal, Kalibr have over 2000km range.
 
sheogorath

sheogorath

Colonel
Registered Member
Broccoli said:
Trainload of what look like T-62 tanks, some don't have era, being moved towards Ukraine. Tank designed in late 1950's is becoming soon more common sight among Russian military units.
Click to expand...

Given that it is going through Ekaterinburg and the city is a massive rail junction that connects to every city in Russia, thinking they are going to Ukraine is one hell of an assumption
 
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