The War in the Ukraine

supersnoop

Major
Registered Member
But patrol boats don't shoot back! So how does it test efficacy?
Are the boats operating far outside the range of LBAD?

How many are getting through? How many are intercepted? How many are successfully hitting the target? Maybe they have some factors/assumptions on how HQ-9 and 16 compare to S-300 and Buk.

They get some data rather than zero. Syria is the only other place they get data, but I think they try to operate outside of the government areas otherwise it would be an invasion instead of a "Special Military Operation" or whatever they call it.
 

FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
Registered Member
Not really. Most of the attacks come from around the Dniepr.

The issue here is that these USV rely on "totally-not-involved-in-this-war" NATO's ISR assets that shield themselves in international airspace. Without them, the USV's would be mostly blind
Would more sophisticated USVs with imaging IR and some AI be more capable?
 

SolarWarden

Junior Member
Registered Member
"Ukraine". They are using Western naval drones, US Starlink satellite network to remotely guide the drones, and Western satellite ISR to track Russian ships.
In an enclosed body of water like the Black Sea it is hard to defend against such types of strikes. Which is why the Russians moved most of their ships to Novorossiysk and are rebuilding a Soviet naval base in Abkhazia.
Still I think more could be done to improve ship defense against such attacks. And we will see such defenses get put into place sooner or later.
You really are going out of your way to make excuses when the obvious is clear to see that Russian incompetence and severe lack of capability is to blame and not the size of the black sea or that Ukraine is using commercial SATs.

Use this map for an example and ignore what is written on it...

Russia-Black-Sea-Submarines-Amphibious-Ship-Jan11-2023.jpg

Every Russian ship that has been hit by Ukraine USV has been around the Russian naval base which means those remote control size speed boats had to travel more than 100 miles. AS you can see on the map west of the base is huge area of water plenty of room for naval warships. If Russia had air superiority these attacks by Ukraine USV wouldn't be a thing but it is a thing because like I said incompetence and lack of capability.
 

sheogorath

Major
Registered Member
Would more sophisticated USVs with imaging IR and some AI be more capable?

Yes but you still need a loitering high altitude, real time recon platform to point you in the general direction of targets. Thats were the RC-135 and RQ-4 that roam around the Black Sea come in.

Attacks, either with cruise missiles or USV's, tend to happen when these aircraft are the most active.

If Russia had air superiority these attacks by Ukraine USV wouldn't be a thing but it is a thing because like I said incompetence and lack of capability.

Tells us how air superiority will stop low-vis USV from being intercepted?.
 

Sinnavuuty

Senior Member
Registered Member
I didn't understand this air superiority thing either. Now anything has become an argument for Russia's lack of air superiority. They even mention that IR search is difficult due to the low heat return of the USV, the same thing applies to a surface search radar installed on the ship being difficult to detect due to the low radar return.
 

MarKoz81

Junior Member
Registered Member
Ukraine has no navy and has sunk more warships against a blue water navy since Falklands however it's not like Russian navy is traveling thousands of miles.

FYI: the distinction of brown, green and blue water navy has to do with range, autonomy and seakeeping of ships not their combat capabilities.

Royal Navy in 1982 was a typical blue water navy but it would be destroyed by Soviet green water fleet (i.e. subs, missile boats etc and without the large vessels) even without air support.

Seakeeping is also more important than range and autonomy. Karakurt built at Zaliv Shipyard in Kerch can go around Europe to Baltiysk but it will be never able to go outside of waters where the sea state can exceed what the hull is capable of handling.

Problem for Russian navy and the whole Russian military, amongst many problems, is they don't fight in a combined arms way there's no Joint-Command in their military. This is what happens when you don't have air superiority and good IRS capabilities.

The Black Sea Fleet has been at war for two years against an enemy armed with anti-ship missiles and anti-ship drones and supported by persistent ISR.

When USN fought in Vietnam the opponent had neither as well as no submarines or sufficient air force to threaten the USN task forces including Carrier Strike Groups. For example the Gulf of Tonkin incident in 1964 involved Vietnamese torpedo boats. Later North Vietnam received four small missile boats (60t) of Komar class armed with two P-15s each, and later Osa II missile boats. The range of those missiles was 40km but NV had no ISR support so it would have to close within striking distance of USN task forces which would be very difficult.

USN is "invincible" not because it has invincible ships or because it can perform joint operations but because it has the ability to attack targets while keeping its task force outside of enemy strike range.

Ukraine can harrass the BSF consistently because it can use drones which can stay at sea for longer periods of time, are not easily detected and are guided with the help of persistent satellite coverage. The drones are also relatively cheap to produce so it can send them repeatedly and wait until an attack succeeds. You only see the clips of when the attacks succeed, but they happen regularly and are just as regularly repelled which tends to put human operators in state of false security.

Also note which types of ship Ukraine is attacking - they are not ships designed or equipped to handle this type of warfare. Western navies equip its recent designs with RCWS because of threats posed by small boats in Persian Gulf or near Horn of Africa. Russia never considered such threats because it has a green water navy protecting its coastal waters and Russian ship designs reflect that. To my knowledge there is no ship in the Black Sea Fleet that is equipped with an electro-optical sensor head and RCWS designed for such tasks.

Project 22160 patrol ships in particular were designed as low-cost vessels for basic patrol duties in low threat environment. They have only the main gun and two manned 14,5mm machine gun stations on each side of the bridge. They were ordered for political and economic reasons. Navy didn't want them.

Russia has designed its ships to meet requirements of its general naval strategy, which included deterrence against NATO, not Ukraine. In this strategy Russian ships such as Steregushchiy or Buyan-M or Karakurt served as forward sensors - radars and sonars - for shore-based missile systems and aircraft. They were deployed at sea but they were the first line of defense for land assets. Russia planned to project power from land to sea, not the other way around.

Those are the confirmed losses, except for the latest Ropucha and Bykov.
1709667959322.png

So I view it differently: it's been two years, and BSF is still in capable of combat operations because it only lost a completely useless, poorly maintained cruiser that barely had any working systems - see leaks of maintenance reports after the sinking. Their problem is lack of an opponent at sea. Drones are not enemy ships but enemy munitions.

Considering the structural and institutional weakness of the Russian navy Ukraine is worst performing at sea. They do much better on land or against the air force which are relatively much stronger.

Don't know why they keep them there...they are destroyed like sitting ducks while doing practically nothing for the war effort.

If Russia removes the ships then it loses physical control of the sea. Whoever has the sea maintains control of escalation.

Dark blue is contiguous zone. Light blue is EEZ.
Black Sea limits.jpg

A foreign navy can sit outside of contiguous zone without consequence as long as it doesn't violate UNCLOS - see SCS disputes.

NATO ships sit at port because it doesn't want risk an incident with Russia while WMF is at sea in force. However if WMF is not at sea then NATO takes over and it will in turn be Russia who will want to avoid an incident since NATO has full right to be there.

Even if we exclude Turkey (which would absolutely take part if only to assert itself independent of US/EU) it still leaves Romania and Bulgaria which have up to 6 frigates, 5 corvettes and 7 missile boats that it can deploy. If Russia decides to challenge NATO presence it will be attacked by Ukrainian drones. All of the frigates also have sonar which will be a problem for the submarines. So Russia must stay "at sea" even as it tries to keep its ships at port as much as it can.

Also if WMF withdrew a concentrated attack by drones against the Kerch bridge or the ports or saboteurs penetrating from the sea would be a question of time. Russian patrols even if sporadic make planning of attacks difficult. Ships provide constant presence while maritime patrol aircraft can only stay in the air for a limited number of hours. Even maritime UAVs - which Russia doesn't have - would have limited endurance and sensor range. The ship is always there but it also means it is always the target.

It's free PR stunt and humiliation for Russian navy.

NATO ships 50km from Crimea will be far worse because by laws of the sea once they're there you can only force them out.

Also NATO aircraft flying over Russian ships in international airspace is considered provocative but NATO aircraft flying over NATO ships in international airspace is not so NATO will put ships at sea as justification for moving its aerial assets closer. But to do that they first must be able to plausibly move in their ships without creating an incident which is only possible if Russian navy is out of theater.

I wonder if these attacks would've been prevented if Russia maintained control of Snake Island.

Ukrainian drones move along different routes.

Snake Island was captured to disrupt maritime transit to Odessa which looks like this:
Black sea.jpg
 

gelgoog

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
I didn't understand this air superiority thing either. Now anything has become an argument for Russia's lack of air superiority. They even mention that IR search is difficult due to the low heat return of the USV, the same thing applies to a surface search radar installed on the ship being difficult to detect due to the low radar return.
Russia has air superiority in Ukraine. What they don't have is air supremacy because of the air defenses Ukraine has. But they can achieve air superiority across the combat front. In particular since they got the UMPK they can also do bombardment pretty much outside the range of most air defenses. Russian interceptor aircraft also vastly outrange Ukrainian ones in either sensors or weapons.

The problem with using aircraft to detect and target the USVs is that Russia doesn't have all that many naval patrol aircraft to begin with. And the few they do have are covering the Northern and Pacific Fleets. To a large degree this is due to a lack of modern transport aircraft airframes. The few naval patrol aircraft use the Il-38 airframe but that is out of production.

As for Russia using their satellite recon i.e. the successor of the Legenda satellite system. The USVs are way smaller than US warships. So they are basically almost impossible to track via satellite.
 
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yugocrosrb95

Junior Member
Registered Member
"effectively able to produce domestically complex/advanced machinery thus negating impact of sanctions" is a very broad statement.
It absolutely is not a " very broad" statement to any degree as I provided source to give context instead of writing text wall here.

You clearly are not informed on subject of DPRK as evident by narrative in your replies and only demonstrated being uninformed.
DPRK can not easily obtain computer numerically controlled machines of any kind due to sanctions that restricts export to them.
Thus cost of importing is considerably higher as is harder to find a source for foreign CNC's thus going through intermediaries.

Hence investment in domestic CNC industry is justified besides just being inline with ideology of self-reliance whenever possible.

Yes, DPRK does produce, and produce a lot - especially for country of ~26 million (around/upto 5 million in mil-related industry). This statement doesn't reflect either nomenclature or the exact level of what this "advancedness" means.
That is statement made by you which does not reflect either nomenclature nor exact level of what this "advancedness" means to you involving DPRK unlike statement I made that provided a source for sake of being concise reply along giving clear context about such.

Yes, North Korea can produce a lot of advanced equipment - and yet it's whole chain, everywhere from material science(and application) for the most boring screw and sheet metal, is often not there where Russian one is. Essentially everything, military or not, that is produced in DPRK, can be vastly improved by applying Ru- know-how; if there are specific items, which DPRK produces better than Russia - it isn't because of DPRK being more advanced in a specific field(there are literally none such fields), but because Korean engineers and administrators are quicker-witted at exploring new ways of using available technology(which happens a lot with Russia, to be fair - and it's paying a huge price for long-outdated schauvinism) . But with all that said - ultimately a comparison between two industrial countries - small and poor(er) and big and rich(er). Even Russian capability to obtain foreign-sourced(western) components, manufacturing equipment, etc is at a scale fundamentally not available to DPRK.
DPRK being industrial country at this economic level is by itself a huge achievement - but let's measure.
You basically wrote wall of text that reply to me for statements that I have not made as nowhere have I stated that DPRK is more advanced than Russia while you are arrogantly assert that acquiring Russian know-how would somehow vastly improve hardware produced by DPRK.
On top of that DPRK due to its size could never have resources to match Russia in procuring components through illicit means.

Btw, given that most probably Russia pays for DPRK solutions in hard cash(in huge volumes for the scale of North Korean export economy) - procuring Chinese industrial solutions at a scale is now possible, too.
Yes, those that China will agree to sell - but for an economy in need of everything, they will not run out of options where to spend the money.

Chinese civilian/manufacturing equipment is available to them - if paid for (sad rule number 1 of having business with DPRK). Weapons generally weren't(to be fair - DPRK avoided chinese weapons much more than it's generally understood in the west - fear of large China is a basic historical trait for any Korean state). But your statement, as far as I remember, was about the ability to do everything in DPRK, better than?
It is your assumption and not me stating that I stated that DPRK could do everything better than either Russia or China as you assert.
This entire reply to me by you relies upon this narrative of yours of saying what I did not, it has no basis in fact about what I have wrote.
Instead issue here is your jump to desired conclusion because you can not accept that DPRK does not need what you assert they need.

This comes from you being uneducated on DPRK which you repeatedly have demonstrated over and over and over again.

All those and more were and are available in Russia, with fundamental/industrial/military research continuously stretching back into history. DPRK never had such luxury, and for most part doesn't have it right now - only practical solutions from available components(i.e. doing world-level development from all the same smuggled OTS components everyone else uses. +developing absolutely key capabilities, only there and when they aren't procurable).
Problem with this narrative of yours is reaction to what I wrote and replies in which you demonstrated being uneducated on DPRK.
Because you can not accept that what you have suggested involving DPRK to gain from Russia is what former already has in some form.
Including industrial machinery such as computer numerically controlled machines with 9-axis and more along form-flowing machines.

Thus only component they would need to import are silicone chips such as memory and processors, not necessarily motherboards.

This leads to a country, at the same time makes impressive ballistic and space rockets (which is still 1960s-1980s level of tech solutions, not exactly a forefront), and where Japanese tractor in the field is still a valuable asset. Occupation-era Japanese.
There are no occupational-era Japanese tractors in DPRK for decades as they make their own for decades so stop with nonsense.

Comparing that to what Russia can provide them with is a complete lack of understanding of what and where DPRK is at.
I am not interested in your projection of yourself onto me when you wrote all that which exposes your lack of understanding of DPRK.
You are uninformed on subject of DPRK and should not make any further replies as all you do is misinform people about North Korea.
 

yugocrosrb95

Junior Member
Registered Member
Oh, everything? Everything, excuse me, what?
Not surprised that you did not know that.

1950s-level submersible targets
Those that were imported, domestic submarines are based on Yugoslav designs that had some Soviet assistance and are at least 1970 level.
Another recovery of American Near-term Mine Reconnaissance System that for some reason washed ashore on North Korean coast.
There are two types of long range unmanned underwater vehicles possibly armed with nuclear warhead, akin to Poseidon.

or simply properly equip their mining operations with heavy vehicles(major export article for the whole country, by the way)?
They have capacity to do so as evident by domestic production of heavy transporter erector launchers for Hwasong-17 and 18 ICBM's.

Maybe basic turbines, in a country awash with hydro energetic potential yet still unable to fully supply electricity even to industry?
If they could not manufacture "basic" turbines then they would not have built any hydroelectric dams, you are not being logical.
Yet industry is fully supplied with electricity because it has priority yet you do not know that as with anything involving DPRK.

Or an adequate auto chassis for all their tactical missiles? (tracked launchers on t-62(!)-derived base are a sign of things)?
You ask for what they already have though not surprising since you know next to nothing about DPRK as you repeatedly demonstrate.
Russia has both wheeled and tracked chassis for S-300 series of SAM complexes which seems you don't know that too apparently.
Advantages and disadvantages that former and latter have for chassis rely on use case if its more off-road or on-road location.

Maybe the production of modern tooling and/or any line of chips?
They do produce modern tooling yet you ignored that and now you try to use it as an argument thus lie that they do not produce it.

Like I went only through examples of mechanical engineering(where DPRK is strong) - and, as you can see, for DPRK holes are everywhere; it's indeed easier to name specific parts of the industry where it isn't a hole, compared to the modern industry standard.
All you did is demonstrate being uninformed on DPRK and provided zero arguments on top of that lying about what I have stated.

With all due respect, if you're DPRK fan - it's good, but learn about the country of your love. Ability to produce something, independently is good, but Russia literally opens the world to the DPRK. Maybe not the most advanced world, as it itself can't do it/doesn't have access to (though. through China it is arguably less and less the case), but still the world where everyone here lives.
Together with money to procure. 2in1.
You are not being respectful at all to any degree, you are uneducated arrogant ignorant illiterate that misinforms people hence it comes to be that people like you, similar to you, make absurd assertions such as all missiles that DPRK produces are based on SCUD technologies.

DPRK has industrial and scientific base to continue developing technologies on their own when reinventing such would be cheaper than trying to license it and for which they have aptitude for it, along having joint research and development with Iran in both civilian and military technologies so do inform yourself about Iran too about their achievements as their relationship goes both ways for decades.

Whatever Russia could provide for vast majority it is what DPRK is producing or is developing on their own.

They produce anti-tank guided missiles such as clones of 9M133 Kornet, AGM-144 Hellfire and Spike-NLOS.
They produce 125mm smoothbore cannon that is 1/5th longer than 2A46 series and along active protection system.
They produce S-300PMU1/2 equivalent SAM complex along developing analogue to S-400 as replacement for S-200.
They produce anti-ship cruise missiles comparable to Kh-35U along land attack akin to Kh-55 if it was ground launched.
They produce equivalent unmanned aerial combat vehicles to MQ-9 Reaper and more capable than Russian Orion UCAV.
They are developing or producing clones of DT59 and DS71 gas turbines, also successful operation of light water reactor.
They produce solid fuel intercontinental ballistic missiles comparable to Topol-M with advanced flexible gimballed nozzle.

They reverse engineered and cloned TRDD-50/36MT miniature turbofan along Allison 250-C20B turboshaft/turboprop engine.

Only truly what Russian can provide without DPRK investing decades into is fighter jet aircraft with caveat they support DPRK AAM's.

I do not care if I get warned or banned for saying all of that. You deserve it every single bit of it you walking disinformation.
 
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