The Sino-Russian Strategic Partnership starts to get serious!

Lethe

Lethe

Captain
solarz said:
I love this picture, it shows tremendous vision, something that is sadly lacking in countries where the politicians are only concerned about the next election.
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I agree, it is breathtaking to see such visions. It reminds one of the great feats achieved in the United States in the 1950s and 60s.

It is also heartening to see such ambitions in a form that literally bridges boundaries between nations. A line connecting China, India, and Pakistan would not merely be an engineering achievement or economic asset, but also a powerful symbol of nations coexisting and cooperating, much as the Channel tunnel was a powerful symbol of the modern relationship between Britain and France, putting a millenia of bad blood behind them.
 
D

delft

Brigadier
Equation said:
True, but HSR is more in line for passengers. I don't know about cargo and commercial use for it.:confused:
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A useful speed increase would enable importing garden produce from the South of Spain to Germany in about 10 hours, needing a speed of 200 km/h. That would already be killing for a lot of medium distance air transport.
I understand the fasted feight trains now go at 160 km/h.
 
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Blackstone

Blackstone

Brigadier
antiterror13 said:
I don't think China want SU-35 and submarines ... Chinese fighters and subs are already better than the Russians.

Engine (eg 117) and S-400 may interest China though
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In addition to jet engines and S-400, China's probably interested in Russian submarine quieting technology too.
 
A

antiterror13

Brigadier
Blackstone said:
In addition to jet engines and S-400, China's probably interested in Russian submarine quieting technology too.
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Agree, but not the whole submarine. I'd be very surprise if China do ..... add more complexity of different systems and weapons and some of the controls would be in Russian
 
wtlh

wtlh

Junior Member
antiterror13 said:
Agree, but not the whole submarine. I'd be very surprise if China do ..... add more complexity of different systems and weapons and some of the controls would be in Russian
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You cannot just take what you want and leave what you don't want. All depends on what the Russians are willing to sell. They will be a lot less willing to sell subcomponents, or a couple of samples, than a significant batch of complete systems, which generate a lot more profits. If you want some key subcomponents only, then really the only viable way is to participate in some joint venture, so that the Russians have something to gain from it.

Most probably, the Russians are only willing to sell the AL35-F with the SU-35 together as a whole package, so that if China wants the engine, then it will have to pay through the nose to get it.
 
TerraN_EmpirE

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
delft said:
A useful speed increase would enable importing garden produce from the South of Spain to Germany in about 10 hours, needing a speed of 200 km/h. That would already be killing for a lot of medium distance air transport.
I understand the fasted feight trains now go at 160 km/h.
Click to expand...

That's not considering stops, breaks in track along the way. Besides that would require a wholesale redesign of the entire shipping container industry as current box cars are not streamlined for high speed rail. As well as building is HSR lines from Spain to Asia. It might be a dream but neither one of us are likely to see it in our lifetimes.
Most likely this plan would stop at access to conventional rail line in Russia perhaps even contracting to upgrade Russian rail systems. Russia is third in miles of rail behind the US and PRC. But larger then both. Russian rail is also mixed with a large number of there rails being narrow or "Imperial gauge" both the PRC and US use Standard gauge. This means that a Train car from China's rails could be used in on any US track and a US train from the US could be loaded on a Chinese rail but neither can be used on all of Russian rail as the space between the rails is about a foot to close.
Also Russian rail is limited in scope. In the European part you can probably get anywhere in Russia. In the Asian part... Helicopter. Most Russian lines in Asia are southern with the occasional northern run until you hit Vladivostok. Then the lines get busy again. The vast majority of Siberia is only reached by air, and then predominantly Helicopter.
Then in this story we have the claim of Russia exporting there latest subs. The PLAN would want the tech but not the hull.
Then the long running Su35... Makes the whole thing stink.
 
B

balance

Junior Member
Why do I feel that some Western media cast a negative view on Russia-China partnership as the article below describes:
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What motivates such a reporting? Fear? Jealousy? Skepticism? or Ignorance?

Isn't peace between two giants in Asia/Europe something to celebrate around the world? Especially for those who claim to be global force for good?
The peace of Russia and China is good for everybody. What is the potential threat to anybody when they come together? I don't see one.

Please educate me on this. I am tired of the twist done by some mainstream media.
 
L

Lezt

Junior Member
TerraN_EmpirE said:
That's not considering stops, breaks in track along the way. Besides that would require a wholesale redesign of the entire shipping container industry as current box cars are not streamlined for high speed rail. As well as building is HSR lines from Spain to Asia. It might be a dream but neither one of us are likely to see it in our lifetimes.
Most likely this plan would stop at access to conventional rail line in Russia perhaps even contracting to upgrade Russian rail systems. Russia is third in miles of rail behind the US and PRC. But larger then both. Russian rail is also mixed with a large number of there rails being narrow or "Imperial gauge" both the PRC and US use Standard gauge. This means that a Train car from China's rails could be used in on any US track and a US train from the US could be loaded on a Chinese rail but neither can be used on all of Russian rail as the space between the rails is about a foot to close.
Also Russian rail is limited in scope. In the European part you can probably get anywhere in Russia. In the Asian part... Helicopter. Most Russian lines in Asia are southern with the occasional northern run until you hit Vladivostok. Then the lines get busy again. The vast majority of Siberia is only reached by air, and then predominantly Helicopter.
Then in this story we have the claim of Russia exporting there latest subs. The PLAN would want the tech but not the hull.
Then the long running Su35... Makes the whole thing stink.
Click to expand...

A high speed train would require much higher tolerances, leveling, material constraints, shock absorbers, turning radius and bank in the rail it rides on than regular trains which can accommodate wobbles, disrepencies better. An example is, for China's first gen high speed rail, the minimum turn radius is 2 km for 200 km/hr, while the newer standard is 4 km to allow for 300 km/hr and 7 km for 350 km/hr. Therefore, if a highspeed rail line is built, it will not use the existing rails as the existing rails is unlikely to have these radius

Existing rails have been retrofitted into high speed rail, but these efforts are limiting to generally sub 200 km/hr while dedicated high speed rails can go up to 450 km/hr, more likely to be in the 380 km/hr range.
 
A

A.Man

Major
Lezt said:
A high speed train would require much higher tolerances, leveling, material constraints, shock absorbers, turning radius and bank in the rail it rides on than regular trains which can accommodate wobbles, disrepencies better. An example is, for China's first gen high speed rail, the minimum turn radius is 2 km for 200 km/hr, while the newer standard is 4 km to allow for 300 km/hr and 7 km for 350 km/hr. Therefore, if a highspeed rail line is built, it will not use the existing rails as the existing rails is unlikely to have these radius

Existing rails have been retrofitted into high speed rail, but these efforts are limiting to generally sub 200 km/hr while dedicated high speed rails can go up to 450 km/hr, more likely to be in the 380 km/hr range.
Click to expand...

If the Sino-Russian high speed rail deal will go through, Russians have agreed to use the standard track all the way from Beijing to Moscow. The current two gauge rail track systems will be used for cargo trains.
 
A

antiterror13

Brigadier
wtlh said:
You cannot just take what you want and leave what you don't want. All depends on what the Russians are willing to sell. They will be a lot less willing to sell subcomponents, or a couple of samples, than a significant batch of complete systems, which generate a lot more profits. If you want some key subcomponents only, then really the only viable way is to participate in some joint venture, so that the Russians have something to gain from it.

Most probably, the Russians are only willing to sell the AL35-F with the SU-35 together as a whole package, so that if China wants the engine, then it will have to pay through the nose to get it.
Click to expand...

oh well, it depends on the bargaining power ... and I believe China has a very high bargaining power

I'd bet my money(a dollar) that China will not buy SU-35 or subs
 
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