The sinking of South Korean Corvette Cheonan

siegecrossbow

General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Or better yet, why not resolve it all through a game of soccer :china:
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I really hope things improve soon. I have a friend from school who's living in Seoul and she's expressed her worries. Where'd you people think she should go if shit hits the fan? I'm talking about the artilleries

Switzerland? Anyways if things escalate your friend should NOT stay in South Korea. Although the North Korean military is pretty backwards the unguided rockets and artillery still present a pretty real threat. Major South Korean cities will be demolished in hours.
 

williamhou

Junior Member
Good analysis all around.

China holds the ring here. I'm only privy to what's public information but it seems to be the Chinese government is being quite unbiased and responsible in dealing with this. Their main interest is stability and maintaining a favorable balance between the Koreas, so they have no reason to want to piss off or harm anyone involved.

It's hard to say whether China is going to join international sanctions on North Korea. That could make Kim feel like he's backed into a corner and might lead him to escalate. And removal of Chinese support could lead to the fall of the regime, something China certainly doesn't want. On the other hand, if the US and SK can convince China that NK did sink the Cheonan, the Chinese will be very mad at NK and will want to try to prevent things like this from happening in the future. And if China protects North Korea again, it's image as a responsible international power on a "peaceful rise" will be harmed.

As Pointblank pointed out, there isn't much more short of military retaliation that South Korea can do. So any true punishment for NK will have to come from China, because SK isn't going to do anything militarily without China's tacit approval, and China is the only country that can harm North Korea economically in a meaningful way. It seems that they heard what Kim had to say when he visited, now they've heard from the US and SK, and China is biding it's time and weighing it's options.

Also, I've been wondering if there's any detailed information available out there on the story of Unit 684, a South Korean military unit of sorts who were involved in the history of violence and provocations between the two Koreas. If you're looking for something interesting, read about it. And if you already know, is there anything more detailed and in English out there other than Wikipedia?


I've watched the movie Silmido some years ago, highly recommended.
 

ravenshield936

Banned Idiot
Switzerland? Anyways if things escalate your friend should NOT stay in South Korea. Although the North Korean military is pretty backwards the unguided rockets and artillery still present a pretty real threat. Major South Korean cities will be demolished in hours.

Oh she's Korean, and she's just went back recently, so she'll be staying for a few months at the very least.
I kinda told her to head to the subways if she doesn't head south, though I'm not sure if that'll do any good.. I just think at least she can escape the barrages on the surface
 

alopes

Junior Member
Good analysis all around.

China holds the ring here. I'm only privy to what's public information but it seems to be the Chinese government is being quite unbiased and responsible in dealing with this. Their main interest is stability and maintaining a favorable balance between the Koreas, so they have no reason to want to piss off or harm anyone involved.

It's hard to say whether China is going to join international sanctions on North Korea. That could make Kim feel like he's backed into a corner and might lead him to escalate. And removal of Chinese support could lead to the fall of the regime, something China certainly doesn't want. On the other hand, if the US and SK can convince China that NK did sink the Cheonan, the Chinese will be very mad at NK and will want to try to prevent things like this from happening in the future. And if China protects North Korea again, it's image as a responsible international power on a "peaceful rise" will be harmed.

As Pointblank pointed out, there isn't much more short of military retaliation that South Korea can do. So any true punishment for NK will have to come from China, because SK isn't going to do anything militarily without China's tacit approval, and China is the only country that can harm North Korea economically in a meaningful way. It seems that they heard what Kim had to say when he visited, now they've heard from the US and SK, and China is biding it's time and weighing it's options.

Also, I've been wondering if there's any detailed information available out there on the story of Unit 684, a South Korean military unit of sorts who were involved in the history of violence and provocations between the two Koreas. If you're looking for something interesting, read about it. And if you already know, is there anything more detailed and in English out there other than Wikipedia?

I would like to question one point about South Korea don´t being able to do anything other than economic sanctions.

As I see it, NK and SK are still without a peace treaty and without a recognition of formal border between their countries.

North Korea just sank a military South Korea´s ship and is threatening the South with war against any non military move that South Korea does against it.
So how this situation don´t allow South korea to have any move other economic ones?

As the news says, South Korea is just making military drills and calling for USA support on those.
USA has accepted to support those military drills.

South Korea will not retreat as far as I can understand it, so that we must know if North Korea will retreat from their rethoric and military threats.

I don´t see USA retreating either on this.
So I don´t see how China can influence the sitiation there, other than putting pressure on North Korea, since South Korea don´t appear in mood to back down.
 
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Finn McCool

Captain
Registered Member
I would like to question one point about South Korea don´t being able to do anything other than economic sanctions.

As I see it, NK and SK are still without a peace treaty and without a recognition of formal border between their countries.

North Korea just sank a military South Korea´s ship and is threatening the South with war against any non military move that South Korea does against it.
So how this situation don´t allow South korea to have any move other economic ones?

As the news says, South Korea is just making military drills and calling for USA support on those.
USA has accepted to support those military drills.

South Korea will not retreat as far as I can understand it, so that we must know if North Korea will retreat from their rethoric and military threats.

I don´t see USA retreating either on this.
So I don´t see how China can influence the sitiation there, other than putting pressure on North Korea, since South Korea don´t appear in mood to back down.

I don't disagree with you. Military action is possible in the strictest sense. But it would probably have very large negative consequences for the South, so I strongly doubt that the South will take military steps against the North. If the North does something else provocative, like carrying out their threat to shoot South Korean propaganda speakers along the DMZ, well, then the likelihood of military action by the South goes up considerably.

The South has basically exhausted its options, the only one left to punish North Korea is military action of some kind, and like I said that would very possibly have disastrous consequences for the South as well. So China is the only country that can punish North Korea in a significant way without risking war. That puts China in a position to bargain very strongly will all sides in this.

Also, say the worst does happen, and all-out war does begin (I don't think that's even close to happening, but for hypothetical reasons let's say it does). In reference to ravenshield's question about his friend in Seoul, what are the odds that the North Koreans really will train their artillery on Seoul en masse? Surely even they can see that Seoul is mostly worthless militarily (the only targets I can think of they would want to hit are the bridges across the Han, and you can't take those out with artillery). Wouldn't they prefer to use their artillery against the fortifications along the DMZ and concentrations of ROK and US forces? With Allied air superiority, artillery batteries will be at risk when in the open and firing, so they would have to pick targets wisely.

EDIT: OTOH, I can see NKs military commanders thinking that high civilian casualties will result in a ceasefire before the US and ROK can defeat them, because of political pressure and all.
 

Spartan95

Junior Member
Today (28 May 2010) is the day when PRC's Premier Wen makes his trip tp Seoul.

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S.Korea to press China's Wen on warship sinking
Posted: 28 May 2010 1223 hrs

SEOUL : Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao will come under pressure to punish his country's ally North Korea for the sinking of a South Korean warship when he visits Seoul later Friday for top-level talks.

Regional tensions have risen sharply since the South officially blamed its neighbour for the March 26 naval disaster and announced reprisals -- prompting threats of attack from the North in return.

South Korea, with the support of Japan and the United States, is pushing for United Nations Security Council sanctions against the North. But it must have the support of China, a veto-wielding member.

Beijing so far has pointedly refused to take sides despite condemnation of Pyongyang from numerous nations for the torpedo attack which killed 46 young sailors.

Japan decided Friday to tighten financial sanctions against the North, extending regulations on remittances to the hardline communist state.

Prime Minister Yukio Hatoyama and US President Barack Obama earlier spoke by phone about North Korea.

"The prime minister and President Obama agreed that North Korea's conduct is unforgivable and that Japan and the United States will cooperate on the issue," said chief government spokesman Hirofumi Hirano.

In Seoul, President Lee Myung-Bak at his afternoon meeting with Wen "will explain our position (on the sinking) and ask for China's cooperation", Lee's spokeswoman said.

US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, in two days of talks in Beijing this week, pressed China to join the move for UN condemnation but appeared to receive no firm commitment.

However, a US diplomat travelling with her said Beijing would carefully move closer to Seoul's position and Wen's visit could mark the start of the change.

The North denies involvement in the sinking and blasts a "smear campaign" by Seoul.

It says it is cutting all ties and scrapping pacts aimed at averting accidental flare-ups along their disputed border, and will attack any intruding ships.

The North also threatens to shut down a jointly-run industrial park at Kaesong, the last reconciliation project still operating.

The South's top military commanders will meet Saturday to discuss countermeasures against cross-border aggression including any moves to take South Korean civilians hostage at Kaesong, the defence ministry said.

Some 42,000 North Koreans and about 800-1,000 South Korean managers work in 110 South Korean factories at the estate just north of the border.

Seoul's unification ministry said the number of South Koreans at Kaesong is being cut by 50-60 per cent.

"If North Korea poses even a slight danger to our people, then we have no choice but to take strong measures," said spokeswoman Lee Jong-Joo.

The cross-border confrontation began when multinational investigators said last week there was overwhelming evidence that a North Korean submarine had fired a torpedo to sink the corvette.

Among other details, they said parts of a torpedo salvaged from the seabed exactly match a model which the North had offered for export.

South Korea has asked China to send experts to check the findings of the investigation but Beijing has not responded yet, a senior Seoul official was quoted as saying by Yonhap news agency.

Russia, which is also a veto-wielding Security Council member, has announced it is sending experts to Seoul to assess the evidence.

Wen's visit, his first for three years, is officially aimed at discussing ways to develop a "strategic cooperative partnership" between the two countries including a proposed free trade agreement.

But the ship dispute is set to dominate his stay.

Friday's talks will also set the tone for discussions on the sunken ship at a trilateral summit this weekend on Jeju island also involving Japanese Prime Minister Yukio Hatoyama.

Officials quoted by Yonhap said the two-way and three-way talks will affect the timing of South Korea's formal request to the Security Council. - AFP/jy

In news reports over the past 2 days, DPRK has announced that it has scrapped a naval pact to prevent accidental flares up in the disputed area (in bold above).

Despite all the sabre-rattling, DPRK have yet to close the joint Kaesong industrial park north of the DMZ. The Kaesong industrial park employs an estimated 42,000 people in DPRK.
 

rhino123

Pencil Pusher
VIP Professional
Oh she's Korean, and she's just went back recently, so she'll be staying for a few months at the very least.
I kinda told her to head to the subways if she doesn't head south, though I'm not sure if that'll do any good.. I just think at least she can escape the barrages on the surface

Actually is the sub-way design to be a bomb raid shelter? If not... I think when the rockets started flying, it would be pretty dangerous hiding in the sub-way, because it might just collapse.

Btw, has South Korea build any dedicated bomb raid shelters? I think the safest thing now is to know where these shelters are exactly. So at the first sight of danger, head for these shelters.
 

Pointblank

Senior Member
Actually is the sub-way design to be a bomb raid shelter? If not... I think when the rockets started flying, it would be pretty dangerous hiding in the sub-way, because it might just collapse.

Btw, has South Korea build any dedicated bomb raid shelters? I think the safest thing now is to know where these shelters are exactly. So at the first sight of danger, head for these shelters.

Not to mention that there is a very high likelihood in a shooting war, the North Korean artillery won't just be shooting HE rounds. Chemical and biological weapons may also be employed.
 

AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
Analysts question Korea torpedo incident

How is it that a submarine of a fifth-rate power was able to penetrate a U.S.-South Korean naval exercise and sink a ship that was designed for anti-submarine warfare?

Such questions are being fueled by suggestions in the South Korean and Japanese media that the naval exercise was intended to provoke the North to attack. The resulting public outcry in the South, according to this analysis, would bolster support for a conservative government in Seoul that is opposed to reconciliation efforts.

As fanciful as it may sound to Western ears, the case that Operation Foal Eagle was designed to provoke the North has been underscored by constant references in regional media to charts showing the location where the ship was sunk -- in waters close to, and claimed by, North Korea.

"Baengnyeong Island is only 20 kilometers from North Korea in an area that the North claims as its maritime territory, except for the South Korean territorial sea around the island,” Japanese journalist Tanaka Sakai wrote in the left-leaning Asia-Pacific Journal: Japan Focus.

He called the sinking of the ship “an enigma.”


"The Cheonan was a patrol boat whose mission was to survey with radar and sonar the enemy’s submarines, torpedoes, and aircraft ... " Sakai wrote.

"If North Korean submarines and torpedoes were approaching, the Cheonan should have been able to sense it quickly and take measures to counterattack or evade. Moreover, on the day the Cheonan sank, US and ROK military exercises were under way, so it could be anticipated that North Korean submarines would move south to conduct surveillance. It is hard to imagine that the Cheonan sonar forces were not on alert."

The liberal Hankyoreh newspaper in Seoul echoed a similar theme.

“A joint South Korean-U.S. naval exercise involving several Aegis warships was underway at the time, and the Cheonan was a patrol combat corvette (PCC) that specialized in anti-submarine warfare. The question remains whether it would be possible for a North Korean submarine to infiltrate the maritime cordon at a time when security reached its tightest level and without detection by the Cheonan,” it reported.

American spy satellites were also monitoring the exercise, “so the U.S. would have known that North Korean submarines had left their ports on a mission,” adds Scott Snyder, director of Center for U.S.-Korea Policy at the Asia Foundation.

“The route the North Korean submarines apparently took was from the East Sea, not directly from the North across the NLL,” or Northern Limit Line, the sea boundary unilaterally imposed by Seoul. “Essentially, they went the roundabout way and came at the ROK vessel from behind,” he said.

But Bruce Klingner, chief of the CIA’s Korea Branch in the 1990s, said “anti-submarine operations are far more difficult than is often realized.

“Beyond the obvious difficulty in tracking something that is designed to operate quietly, navies are confronted with natural acoustical phenomena as shallow, noisy littoral waters and layers of water salinity which can provide cover for submarines.”

Moreover, says Terence Roehrig, a professor at the Naval War College, “the Cheonan was an older Pohang-class corvette and not one of these [newer] ships.”

“Satellite and communications coverage of sub bases can tell when subs have left base…” adds Bruce Bechtol, Jr., professor of international relations at the Marine Corps Command and Staff College. “It cannot tell locations of submarines once they are at sea -- unless they surface or communicate.”

“A mini-submarine like the type that is assessed to have penetrated the NLL is designed specifically for covert maneuvering in shallow waters like those that exist off of the west coast of the Korean Peninsula,” he said.

“It appears from the reports that [the South Korean Ministry of Defense] has released that a submarine departed port off the west coast of North Korea, accompanied by a support vessel. The submarine perhaps could have come fairly close to the NLL using diesel power, then switched to battery power, which is much quieter,” Bechtol added. “The submarine could have then slipped past the NLL at an appropriate time and waited for a ROK ship to approach.”

Suspicions about what happened, Bechtol said, are unwarranted.

“The fact of the matter is, a submarine did infiltrate into South Korean waters -- and they have done so in the past fairly frequently," he said.

"It is their mission.”

By Jeff Stein | May 27, 2010; 4:19 PM ET

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Pointblank

Senior Member
Analysts question Korea torpedo incident

How is it that a submarine of a fifth-rate power was able to penetrate a U.S.-South Korean naval exercise and sink a ship that was designed for anti-submarine warfare?

Such questions are being fueled by suggestions in the South Korean and Japanese media that the naval exercise was intended to provoke the North to attack. The resulting public outcry in the South, according to this analysis, would bolster support for a conservative government in Seoul that is opposed to reconciliation efforts.

As fanciful as it may sound to Western ears, the case that Operation Foal Eagle was designed to provoke the North has been underscored by constant references in regional media to charts showing the location where the ship was sunk -- in waters close to, and claimed by, North Korea.

"Baengnyeong Island is only 20 kilometers from North Korea in an area that the North claims as its maritime territory, except for the South Korean territorial sea around the island,” Japanese journalist Tanaka Sakai wrote in the left-leaning Asia-Pacific Journal: Japan Focus.

He called the sinking of the ship “an enigma.”


"The Cheonan was a patrol boat whose mission was to survey with radar and sonar the enemy’s submarines, torpedoes, and aircraft ... " Sakai wrote.

"If North Korean submarines and torpedoes were approaching, the Cheonan should have been able to sense it quickly and take measures to counterattack or evade. Moreover, on the day the Cheonan sank, US and ROK military exercises were under way, so it could be anticipated that North Korean submarines would move south to conduct surveillance. It is hard to imagine that the Cheonan sonar forces were not on alert."

The liberal Hankyoreh newspaper in Seoul echoed a similar theme.

“A joint South Korean-U.S. naval exercise involving several Aegis warships was underway at the time, and the Cheonan was a patrol combat corvette (PCC) that specialized in anti-submarine warfare. The question remains whether it would be possible for a North Korean submarine to infiltrate the maritime cordon at a time when security reached its tightest level and without detection by the Cheonan,” it reported.

American spy satellites were also monitoring the exercise, “so the U.S. would have known that North Korean submarines had left their ports on a mission,” adds Scott Snyder, director of Center for U.S.-Korea Policy at the Asia Foundation.

“The route the North Korean submarines apparently took was from the East Sea, not directly from the North across the NLL,” or Northern Limit Line, the sea boundary unilaterally imposed by Seoul. “Essentially, they went the roundabout way and came at the ROK vessel from behind,” he said.

But Bruce Klingner, chief of the CIA’s Korea Branch in the 1990s, said “anti-submarine operations are far more difficult than is often realized.

“Beyond the obvious difficulty in tracking something that is designed to operate quietly, navies are confronted with natural acoustical phenomena as shallow, noisy littoral waters and layers of water salinity which can provide cover for submarines.”

Moreover, says Terence Roehrig, a professor at the Naval War College, “the Cheonan was an older Pohang-class corvette and not one of these [newer] ships.”

“Satellite and communications coverage of sub bases can tell when subs have left base…” adds Bruce Bechtol, Jr., professor of international relations at the Marine Corps Command and Staff College. “It cannot tell locations of submarines once they are at sea -- unless they surface or communicate.”

“A mini-submarine like the type that is assessed to have penetrated the NLL is designed specifically for covert maneuvering in shallow waters like those that exist off of the west coast of the Korean Peninsula,” he said.

“It appears from the reports that [the South Korean Ministry of Defense] has released that a submarine departed port off the west coast of North Korea, accompanied by a support vessel. The submarine perhaps could have come fairly close to the NLL using diesel power, then switched to battery power, which is much quieter,” Bechtol added. “The submarine could have then slipped past the NLL at an appropriate time and waited for a ROK ship to approach.”

Suspicions about what happened, Bechtol said, are unwarranted.

“The fact of the matter is, a submarine did infiltrate into South Korean waters -- and they have done so in the past fairly frequently," he said.

"It is their mission.”

By Jeff Stein | May 27, 2010; 4:19 PM ET

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That first Japanese 'expert' is idiot. He has no clue about ASW warfare. The Cheonan's ASW capabilities are very limited at best, even at the time when it was launched. I would describe the ASW capability as offered on the Cheonan as basic self defence, and that's being generous. The South Korean's aren't that well versed in ASW warfare, and neither are the Americans as they are extremely rusty themselves. And in littoral waters, ASW becomes a whole new ball game because of the challenging acoustics. ASW is very much an art and depends a whole lot on an operator's skill combined with good equipment and tactics.
 
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