The role of the Economy in national confrontations

Equation

Lieutenant General
Re: economy's role in long wars

Mainland also have the most polluted cities in the world.

Yeah true, but only for awhile in those large cities (20 million + population). It's not like that everyday (exclusively exaggerated in some media). Heck there's smog here in Houston, but it doesn't occur 365 days a year does it? Nope.
 

advill

Junior Member
Re: economy's role in long wars

Economically, China is STRONG at this present time, and probably will continue the next 10-20 years. It will become the No. 1 Economic Power overtaking the US. Time is on its side & doesn't appear rational for China to think of "long wars". Any major war will destroy its dream of eventually being a real Superpower (economically, militarily & foreign affairs). The country is already working towards the Chinese Dream becoming a Reality. Interesting to watch its progress with possible changing scenarios (including regional relationship with its neighbours), and strategies to fit them.
 

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
Re: economy's role in long wars

That's assuming
One) they have a high rate of growth and it is maintained.
Two) they can maintain there populations productivity despite a potential aging and population growth issues including the male to female ratios.
Three) a stable government
Four) consistent exports and imports.
 

Equation

Lieutenant General
Re: economy's role in long wars

That's assuming
One) they have a high rate of growth and it is maintained.
Two) they can maintain there populations productivity despite a potential aging and population growth issues including the male to female ratios.
Three) a stable government
Four) consistent exports and imports.

True, but that applies to everybody.

That's assuming
One) they have a high rate of growth and it is maintained.

This looks to be the trend as the government keeps growth at slower rate (7-8%) per year

That's assuming
Two) they can maintain there populations productivity despite a potential aging and population growth issues including.

I think this aging and population growth argument is overrated, since when does China NOT ever face any kind of population problems through out it's long history? This sounds to me more like scare tactics for the short seller investors.


Three) a stable government


The CPC is stable enough, last time I check they were one's that didn't had a government shut down of any sort.


Four) consistent exports and imports.

I think export to the US and EU might decrease a bit over the next decade or two, but to other developing countries throughout, the Middle East, Central Asia, ASEAN nations, Africa, and South America will increase and probably make up for that depending on the values of the goods and services. Heck China can even import itself to keep the economy level if even export fell a bit.
 

Cheng

New Member
Re: PLAN Aircraft Carrier programme..News & Views

I've was just looking at carrier battle groups as an aircraft delivery platform versus land-based aircraft in the SCS, so I thought I'd do one for the US Navy in the Western Pacific.

It looks like a typical US carrier battle group costs about $30 Billion to procure, plus the US needs 3 carrier groups to provide a constant forward presence.

So a permanent peacetime forward presence of 60 planes on a US Carrier in the Western Pacific costs a total of $90Billion to purchase.

===

But for China to establish an equivalent presence of 60 planes would cost the same $5 Billion for the planes, as there are lots of existing airbases within easy reach of the Western Pacific.

That is a huge cost disparity, as the US Navy has to spend $90 Billion for 3 full carrier battle groups whilst China only has to spend $5 Billion.

Most importantly, it raises the question of how the US can afford to project military power against China, given that China has a larger economy than the US and also lacks suitable airbases in the region.

NB.
This is a simplified analysis that doesn't include operating costs etc and also assumes that the Chinese planes can be dispersed away from a vulnerable airbase when required.
 

chuck731

Banned Idiot
Re: PLAN Aircraft Carrier programme..News & Views

China does NOT have a larger economy then the US. US economy is twice as large as china's on nominal terms, and 30% larger than china's on purchasing power parity terms.

If Chinese growth rate does not falter, it will take china until 2022 to equal the US economy in PPP terms.

The way things are going, the United States in the future will be able to add the economy and geographic assets such as air bases of Japan to its own economy and bases in supporting power projection against china. It would take Chinese at least till late 2020s, provided it continue to maintain 7.5% growth rate beyond 2020, which seem doubtful, to match total economy of US Japan block.
 

vesicles

Colonel
Re: PLAN Aircraft Carrier programme..News & Views

China does NOT have a larger economy then the US. US economy is twice as large as china's on nominal terms, and 30% larger than china's on purchasing power parity terms.

If Chinese growth rate does not falter, it will take china until 2022 to equal the US economy in PPP terms.

The way things are going, the United States in the future will be able to add the economy and geographic assets such as air bases of Japan to its own economy and bases in supporting power projection against china. It would take Chinese at least till late 2020s, provided it continue to maintain 7.5% growth rate beyond 2020, which seem doubtful, to match total economy of US Japan block.

China's economy is still smaller than that of the US. However, in time of war, logistics determines the outcome. The US, with the longest supply route, will definitely be at disadvantage if the US comes to the SCS. This disadvantage might potentially offset the technological/numerical advantage that the US might have against China. IF this unlikely war happens way into the future, then the US might not even hold those technological/numerical advantage any more. Then fighting a war in the SCS would be bad bad idea. The same thing goes with China. If China thinks about sending its CBGs to the Gulf of Mexico, it would be an equally bad bad idea.

Logistics has been a profound advantage and disadvantage for the US. Advantage: no one wants to actually attack the US because it is so far from everyone else. Disadvantage: the US has to solve the supply issue every single time it sends out troops. This was the case in both WWI and WWII. Luckily, the US had UK in the WWII. And they still had to obtain Africa first to use it as a stepping stone. In Asia however, there is no such stepping stone. Almost all land mass surrounding China's east coast are small islands, which cannot be used for anything major. All the land connecting with China's south is mountains and jungles. The US knows the disadvantage of fighting and traveling in this kind of terrain all too well. The only land mass large enough to support large scale operations is Korea, half of which does not belong to the US.

All in all, any military conflict between the US and China would become a major headache for both sides. So no war between the US and China.
 

Totoro

Major
VIP Professional
Matching one's economy is one thing. Matching one's total military power is another. Matching one's projected military power in a selected geographical area is yet another. And on top of that one should really add total influence or political power, which is a different variable altogether.

*IF* both sides keep on going at some predictable pace, interpolated from the history of other countries in similar positions and from the history of China/US own growth in the last 20 or so years...

China might match US economy sometime in 2030-2035 period.

Matching total military power is much more harder, as that involves catching up decades of US investments in quantitative and qualitative lead. It really might take a whole generation of lifetime of military systems, say some 30-ish years or so. So i would expect China to match that sometime in the 2060-2070 period.

Matching local projected military power is different. Farther one is from home, the harder it gets. People most often neglect the logistical drawbacks power projection requires half way around the world. China may not project its power near US shores for another 100 years or so. Likewise, projecting US power, even with existing bases near China, is very demanding. When it comes to projecting power around some mid point between first and second island chains, I would expect China to match US sometime after 2030 perhaps by 2040. It's hard to tell, this one. (yes, that does mean that matching projected power just to the first island chain might not take very long anymore. It might happen in as little as a decade from now)

Overall political influence is much, much harder to achieve than any of this.

We have the example of USA versus UK. USA matched UK's nominal GDP back in 1880. By the start of ww1 it doubled its lead over UK's GDP. Some might argue USA still wasn't premier political power in the world, that it didn't achieve that title until start of ww2. That was 60 years after passing UK's GDP and at that point US had three times as large GDP as UK.

Even so, China's climb might be harder and slower than that as there are alleviating circumstances that US enjoyed back then. Cultural influence was more easely achieved as A) they used the same language and similar culture as the power they replaced in the World. B) Mass media and globalization didn't really exist in time period when UK ruled the World. USA was basically the first power that embraced those as a tool to spread its cultural influence. So it has a decent century long lead over China in that regard.

Further helping facts that US enjoyed and China might not is the fact US increased the usage of its territory and its population very quickly. Its population grew 260% from 1880 to 1940. UK's population grew some 90% in the same period. Now, as we know, simply increasing population can be counterproductive. It's exactly what drew down India and even China, before one child policy. One first needs to achieve a certain level of wealth and productivity per capita and be able to maintain it with added population. UK and US managed that a century ago. But simply adding poor population which will require more of the State than it will give back to the State is not productive. UK to an extent, but especially USA, also had natural resources and free territory inside their borders to utilize that extra potential from the extra population.

China on the other hand seems content to stick to its current population levels and first will want to bring the large portion of its population to some standard that's closer to current western world levels. All that is very tricky stuff to predict, but its decades of work.

Altogether, all these issues make me personally believe China won't really match overall influence in the world before 2100, in the best case (where its economy keeps growing as it is) and perhaps it will take as long as 2150, (if its economy keeps decelerating, as it would appear all economies do at some stage)

I would think it's safe to say no one here at this forum will be alive to see the day China overtakes US. It's a natural process and as with all such processes, it takes time.

And none of this takes into account possible earthshattering developments. Revolutions, plagues, world wars, asteroid strikes or whatever, which may or may not sway US and/or China's power in any direction and at any pace.

All this is just personal opinion of one single person, please don't take it too seriously and start a crusade against my writings.
 

vesicles

Colonel
in terms of political influence, one has to look at the geographical location of the nation, thus the term geopolitics. The US couldn't obtain global leader position even with top GDP in the late 1800's and early 1900's precisely because the US is so much isolated from the geopolitical centers of the world. China, on the other hand, is in the center of everything. That was why the US wanted to ally with China in the 1970's. Now, the then president Nixon was a HUGE communist hater and China was still in the middle of one of the biggest political turmoil in the history. There was no economy to speak of and China's military was not much better. Yet, despite these factors, Nixon went to China himself to look for an alliance. For a person who had devoted his life hating communists, there had to a driving force large enough to offset his own personal hatred and China's economic, political and military disaster at the time. It would be China's geopolitical position. That was when China was still poor and chaotic. Imagine where China would sit with boat-load of money and high-tech weapons... So China does not need to match the economic power of the US to have a similar influence because of China's geopolitical position.
 
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