The Q-5, J-7, J-8 and older PLAAF aircraft

L

Lion

Senior Member
Miragedriver said:
There are several J-7 posting already on Sinodefense, so I figured that one more wouldn’t make a difference.

In reading all the articles regarding the JF-17/FC-, and its wonderful capabilities, I started to contemplate why it is not selling like “hotcakes” (as the Americans would say). The aircraft is very capable and probable similar to a block 30 F-16 (this is just my opinion, not a fact).

Using my third world mind set. I see that many of the potential customers that could afford to by the aircraft are opting for surplus F-16 that are becoming available, or to a lesser extent the used MiG-29s. This places air forces on a budget (with the global economy crisis) in a position to look for a more economical means of replacing older aircraft, or as a placeholder until a more suitable replacement can be obtained.

The limited funds and resources usually available to the nation experiencing aging aircraft and a minimized budget, a multimillion-dollar weapon systems, many not be the answer. While it may be a status symbol for developing countries to have JF-17s, F-16s and MiG-29’ on their ramps, one has to question if these aircraft are proper for the job. More important is the question of whether the particular country has the industrial, educational, and technical base to support such high-technology aircraft.
So here is the question:

Do any of you see the potential of China marketing a single seat version of the JL-9, or developing the J-7MF type of aircraft for 3rd world nations that need to “fill the ranks” for to replace aging MiG-21 already in the fleet?
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Why FC-1 is not selling like Hotcakes? Because its a 50/50 joint venture with Pakistan which AVIC needs to share profit with partner. But there is another plane AVIC is more interested to sell to grab a 100% profit for themselves. That is L-15. Before it officially enter service, it already secure 2 foreign customers. One Africa and one South American buyers. Not too mention PLAAF themselves have order much more.

Check out the latest spec of L-15, its very close to FC-1 and the best thing is this beast can carry a 2 pilot. Acting both as trainer and convert to attacker/fighter with ease. Best of both world and it has a cheap dirt price of 70-80million rmb per piece. While FC-1 now still stuck with single seat mode with no foresee of a 2 seated prototype coming out in near future.
 
H

hardware

Banned Idiot
among the aircraft participate in the display was new variant of J-8-3- called J-8DF,according to blogger J-8Df feature new radar and electronic, but his biggest improvement was replacement of fuel thirsty WP-13 with torbofan engine. while itdo not mention what kind of engine,likely pointing at WS-9 engine.
 
SteelBird

SteelBird

Colonel
This must be joking! Whoever on earth will buy J-8 at this time? No matter what you put on it, J-8 is still J-8. I just wonder when Shenyang is being busy with J-11, J-15 and especially J-31, how can they spare time/resource to further develop J-8?
 
Deino

Deino

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
hardware said:
among the aircraft participate in the display was new variant of J-8-3- called J-8DF,according to blogger J-8Df feature new radar and electronic, but his biggest improvement was replacement of fuel thirsty WP-13 with torbofan engine. while itdo not mention what kind of engine,likely pointing at WS-9 engine.
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IMO these reports are simply wrong and mostly "done" by overenthusiastic amateurs ! Sorry.

First of all if You look at the J-8 on display at Zhuhai (even if labled a J-8DF) it is clearly not a J-8F since the J-8F features a typical cut out on the radome, which this one does not fueature. IMO this one is simple an updated, modernised DH with the typical black radome of all J-8H's (featuring the constant demarcation line between fuselage and radome) and are only updated avionics wise. (in fact these aircraft were simple reassigned from the former 9. Fighter Division to the now 2. FD).

Besides that fitting a WS-9 type of engine into the slim fuselage is completely impossible .... and the only other possible optiuon, the WS-14 Kunlun is as fas as I know long dead !

Deino
 
H

hardware

Banned Idiot
Deino said:
IMO these reports are simply wrong and mostly "done" by overenthusiastic amateurs ! Sorry.

First of all if You look at the J-8 on display at Zhuhai (even if labled a J-8DF) it is clearly not a J-8F since the J-8F features a typical cut out on the radome, which this one does not fueature. IMO this one is simple an updated, modernised DH with the typical black radome of all J-8H's (featuring the constant demarcation line between fuselage and radome) and are only updated avionics wise. (in fact these aircraft were simple reassigned from the former 9. Fighter Division to the now 2. FD).

Besides that fitting a WS-9 type of engine into the slim fuselage is completely impossible .... and the only other possible optiuon, the WS-14 Kunlun is as fas as I know long dead !

Deino
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to retrofit F-8-3 with spey engine require surgery,why invest in old chunker like F-8-3,when sure bet was J-31?
 
T

Totoro

Major
VIP Professional
I am a regular visitor to scramble.nl china orbat. where there were something like 11 regiments of j7e in plaaf and planaf just a year before, that dropped to 7 units now. 5 regiments and 2 brigades. What is the meaning of that?

I assume the regiments have the same composition as before, no? What of the brigades? Are the 2 brigades holding over 50 j7e each?

Or have the figures before been unrealistically large and now they are simply corrected? Maybe some of the fabled 250 j7 production went for export and not all was taken within plaaf? Or maybe some j7es were converted into j7g? Or is scramble.nl just making stuff up? (i don't believe they are, they've been pretty good and up to date for years) Is there a good explanation out there?
 
tphuang

tphuang

Lieutenant General
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Super Moderator
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Totoro said:
I am a regular visitor to scramble.nl china orbat. where there were something like 11 regiments of j7e in plaaf and planaf just a year before, that dropped to 7 units now. 5 regiments and 2 brigades. What is the meaning of that?

I assume the regiments have the same composition as before, no? What of the brigades? Are the 2 brigades holding over 50 j7e each?

Or have the figures before been unrealistically large and now they are simply corrected? Maybe some of the fabled 250 j7 production went for export and not all was taken within plaaf? Or maybe some j7es were converted into j7g? Or is scramble.nl just making stuff up? (i don't believe they are, they've been pretty good and up to date for years) Is there a good explanation out there?
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J-7s have really short service life. So, it would not be surprising if some of them have just reached the end of that.
 
F

franco-russe

Senior Member
Totoro said:
I am a regular visitor to scramble.nl china orbat. where there were something like 11 regiments of j7e in plaaf and planaf just a year before, that dropped to 7 units now. 5 regiments and 2 brigades. What is the meaning of that?

I assume the regiments have the same composition as before, no? What of the brigades? Are the 2 brigades holding over 50 j7e each?

Or have the figures before been unrealistically large and now they are simply corrected? Maybe some of the fabled 250 j7 production went for export and not all was taken within plaaf? Or maybe some j7es were converted into j7g? Or is scramble.nl just making stuff up? (i don't believe they are, they've been pretty good and up to date for years) Is there a good explanation out there?
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Did Scramble really ever say that there were 11 J-7E regiments? If so, it is obviously an inflated figure. I regard Scramble as highly credible, and cannot believe they made a mistake like that.

I hold two brigades and five regiments in PLAAF (basically the same as Scramble), namely K86U Rugao, K88U Dandong, K9S25T Shoguan, K14S42T Zhangshu, K21S61T Yanji, K33S97T Dazu, and K3S7 Wuhu (which is mixed J-7E/J-7G, Scramble has it as J-7G).

And one regiment in PLANAF, H8S24T Jialai.

As you might know, a total of 263 J-7E were produced 1993-2002. At that time, J-7’s were apparently built in regimental lots of 36, so that would be to 7x36 – corresponding to my 7 regiments – plus 11 pre-series, which went to FTTC (0001 is known to have been FTTC’s 72263, then went to K30S89T Dalian-Zhoushuizi as 40713, and is now probably in K88U).

They also built 34 J-7EH, which went first to H4S12T Luqiao, and then, when that regiment converted to J-10AH, to H8S24T.

As you might also know, J-7 brigades have 38 planes each (I guess 32 one-seaters and 6 twin-seaters).
 
T

Totoro

Major
VIP Professional
it doesn't make sense many j7e would be retired as the oldes one are only going to be 20 next year. whereas there are still a few hundred earlier j7 planes in service that date from first half of 1980s. if anything, first the older planes would be retired.

if brigades have 38 planes each, out of which 32 are j7e and 6 are training jj7, that's 64 planes right there. then we have 5 or five and half more regiments (plaaf and planaf combined) regiments, as far as i know, have less planes. they have 24 j7s and 4 training jj7s. at best maybe they have 28 combat j7 and then some training jj7s.

but even in that case - we're looking at 5.5 times 28 = 154. plus 64 from the two brigades. that is 218 planes. Yes, there are bound to be some in agressor squadron. also some should be in FTTC. Also some might've been lost to attrition. But still, 45 planes difference from total of 263 produced since 1993? It doesn't compute. Not unless at least one whole regiment was converted to j7g, which is a piece of news that sometimes pops up.

and that is the best case scenario. worse case scenario is if regiments hold 24 combat j7e and 4 training jj7 then we are looking at a total of 196 planes in those 5-6 regiments and 2 brigades. now we are almost 70 planes short. were there then two regiments worth of j7e modernized and refurbished as j7g?

which one is it? or is there a third solution?
 
F

franco-russe

Senior Member
This was the ready information I had.

As you point out, it does not make sense to retire J-7E's when much older versions remain in service (some J-7A reportedly are still in service with the former Lanzhou MRAF Training Base at Jiuquan!). It has been evident that whenever a J-7E (or J-7G) regiment converts to J-10 or J-11, the planes are passed down to a fighter regiment flying older versions.

The argument really hinges on how many J-7E's are in a regiment. If it was assumed that J-7E regiments have the same establishment as J-8 regiments, i.e. 28 single- and 4 twin-seaters, the calculus would look very different. I shall try to see if it is possible to get a better grip on the problem by looking at Google Earth.

The agressor squadrons belong to FTTC. It looks as if there are four at Cangzhou and seven at Gucheng. Strangely, the test regiment at Dingxin only has J-7H and K, no J-7E.
 
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