The Q-5, J-7, J-8 and older PLAAF aircraft

Semi-Lobster said:

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A few days ago plane spotters at Chengdu saw a new batch of J-7Gs flying but.... who could they be for? Obviouly for export but I was under the impression that J-7 production had ceased completely?

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When there is a demand, nothing is impossible. Not all AF need the sophistication of a J-10 and FC-1 which has powerful radar, BVR and huge payload and AWACS support. All these goodies and new doctrine needs new level of training which cost money and time which thesse small AF can't afford.

Some AF are faces very obsolete enemies who still grind in the era of dogfight. All they need is a fighter with decent radar and agility. Send into skies and pop a few WVR Air to air missiles will get the job done. They don't need powerful ECM suite, radar and difficult IFF to launch BVRAAM to get the job done.

Which is the reason why I believe FC-1 will never do well in market. They targeted the wrong pool of customer. Those who needed FC-1 type of aircraft usually belong to higher tier of economies who can well afford F-16 blk52.

But I am curious why the potential export customer did not opt for JL-9 eagle which is newer , more cost saving since it can act as trainer and covert into fighter jet when neccesary which killed 2 birds with a stone.

Probably the second seat reduced performance for a small fighter like JL-9 compare to single seat J-7G??

Semi-Lobster said:

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A few days ago plane spotters at Chengdu saw a new batch of J-7Gs flying but.... who could they be for? Obviouly for export but I was under the impression that J-7 production had ceased completely?

Click to expand...

Bangladesh has 12 J-7BGI (plus 4 twin-seaters) on order for delivery in 2012, which probably is where 1152 and 1153 are headed. In 2006 they ordered a first batch of 12 J-7BG and 4 tFT-7 win-seaters.

Lion said:

When there is a demand, nothing is impossible. Not all AF need the sophistication of a J-10 and FC-1 which has powerful radar, BVR and huge payload and AWACS support. All these goodies and new doctrine needs new level of training which cost money and time which thesse small AF can't afford.

Some AF are faces very obsolete enemies who still grind in the era of dogfight. All they need is a fighter with decent radar and agility. Send into skies and pop a few WVR Air to air missiles will get the job done. They don't need powerful ECM suite, radar and difficult IFF to launch BVRAAM to get the job done.

Which is the reason why I believe FC-1 will never do well in market. They targeted the wrong pool of customer. Those who needed FC-1 type of aircraft usually belong to higher tier of economies who can well afford F-16 blk52.

But I am curious why the potential export customer did not opt for JL-9 eagle which is newer , more cost saving since it can act as trainer and covert into fighter jet when neccesary which killed 2 birds with a stone.

Probably the second seat reduced performance for a small fighter like JL-9 compare to single seat J-7G??

Click to expand...

AF like of Cambodia's can't even afford to buy/operate J-7! I am thinking that if they fit J-7 with a more fuel efficient engine, a little more internal fuel to make longer leg. It is still quite a decent fighter.

plawolf said:

CAC got by by making the J7, they did some good work on the J9 study, but that ultimately fell through because of the engine. They made their big breakthrough when their chief designer gate crashed the air force's next gen fighter proposal meeting at the urgence of an Air Force higher up fed up with SAC's incompetence. CAC stole the shown and turned a slam dunk for SAC into an actual competition, which they then went on to win. That project led to the J10 and the rest is history. And now it's SAC's turn to feel the weight of the chip on their shoulder.

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Originally, J-20 was also going to be a project of SAC. The 386 leader wanted the aircraft to be readied (first flight?) before 2015, but SAC said this couldn't be done until 2020 and even then the product would be inferior to F-22. Once again fed up with SAC's incompetence, PLAAF opened up the project for competition. Not only was CAC's proposal superior to SAC's, Dr. Song also personally guaranteed that J-20 would fly before 2012. History repeated itself so now CAC got the J-20.

plawolf said:

The rivalry between the two is such that it has hinted at that the reason the J10 still uses the AL31 is because SAC has the WS10A maker in their pocket and was using all it's influence to make sure their J11 got priority.

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I wouldn't call that rivalry but rather the typical cheap tactics that SAC employs.

The thing is that after SAC lost the competition, they claimed CAC lied saying that it would be impossible for J-20 to be readied before 2020. So, SAC sent a bunch of people to General Armaments Department to complain and to try to pressure the air force into nullify the result of the competition. SAC also used its influence in AVIC and forced CAC into coughing up some structural design work for SAC. I think around the same time, AVIC also tried to replace Dr. Song with a person from SAC. Suffice to say, the air force was not pleased, and created a special department to oversee the J-20 project directly afterward.

Engineer said:

Originally, J-20 was also going to be a project of SAC. The 386 leader wanted the aircraft to be readied (first flight?) before 2015, but SAC said this couldn't be done until 2020 and even then the product would be inferior to F-22. Once again fed up with SAC's incompetence, PLAAF opened up the project for competition. Not only was CAC's proposal superior to SAC's, Dr. Song also personally guaranteed that J-20 would fly before 2012. History repeated itself so now CAC got the J-20.



I wouldn't call that rivalry but rather the typical cheap tactics that SAC employs.

The thing is that after SAC lost the competition, they claimed CAC lied saying that it would be impossible for J-20 to be readied before 2020. So, SAC sent a bunch of people to General Armaments Department to complain and to try to pressure the air force into nullify the result of the competition. SAC also used its influence in AVIC and forced CAC into coughing up some structural design work for SAC. I think around the same time, AVIC also tried to replace Dr. Song with a person from SAC. Suffice to say, the air force was not pleased, and created a special department to oversee the J-20 project directly afterward.

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Thanks for the info, very informative. So about this competition, is SAC's candidate the recently exposed F-60/J-21? Or do they still have something in the heavy class of F-22/J-20 that is still not yet made it is first flight.

stardave said:

Thanks for the info, very informative. So about this competition, is SAC's candidate the recently exposed F-60/J-21? Or do they still have something in the heavy class of F-22/J-20 that is still not yet made it is first flight.

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No. SAC's candidate was in the heavy weight class with a triplane configuration. It wasn't something that SAC could have realistically pull off anyway. As far as I know, F-60 has no relation whatsoever with that triplane design and is purely a private venture.

Engineer said:

No. SAC's candidate was in the heavy weight class with a triplane configuration. It wasn't something that SAC could have realistically pull off anyway. As far as I know, F-60 has no relation whatsoever with that triplane design and is purely a private venture.

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Is that triplane still planning to fly? Or have SAC give up on that seeing the success of J-20?

stardave said:

Is that triplane still planning to fly? Or have SAC give up on that seeing the success of J-20?

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That triplane is just a paper airplane. Like I have said already, it wasn't something that SAC could have pulled off.

As to whether SAC gave up, the answer is no in my opinion. They probably have some unrealistic expectation that the air force would purchase F-60, but it simply isn't going to happen.

I find it amazing that the J-7 has developed into such a prolific aircraft. With the J-7G and the JL-9 as the latest version. China should try to sell these aircraft to 3rd world air forces as point defense interceptor. From my understanding, these aircraft are inexpensive to fly and maintain. If anything else they make a good placeholder for air forces that have not made up their minds on a future acquisition.
If the J-7 continues to evolve we may even see a stealth version of it. Just kidding!!!!
I found this picture while surfing the net and it reminded me of the J-7. Enjoy!

There are several J-7 posting already on Sinodefense, so I figured that one more wouldn’t make a difference.

In reading all the articles regarding the JF-17/FC-, and its wonderful capabilities, I started to contemplate why it is not selling like “hotcakes” (as the Americans would say). The aircraft is very capable and probable similar to a block 30 F-16 (this is just my opinion, not a fact).

Using my third world mind set. I see that many of the potential customers that could afford to by the aircraft are opting for surplus F-16 that are becoming available, or to a lesser extent the used MiG-29s. This places air forces on a budget (with the global economy crisis) in a position to look for a more economical means of replacing older aircraft, or as a placeholder until a more suitable replacement can be obtained.

The limited funds and resources usually available to the nation experiencing aging aircraft and a minimized budget, a multimillion-dollar weapon systems, many not be the answer. While it may be a status symbol for developing countries to have JF-17s, F-16s and MiG-29’ on their ramps, one has to question if these aircraft are proper for the job. More important is the question of whether the particular country has the industrial, educational, and technical base to support such high-technology aircraft.
So here is the question:

Do any of you see the potential of China marketing a single seat version of the JL-9, or developing the J-7MF type of aircraft for 3rd world nations that need to “fill the ranks” for to replace aging MiG-21 already in the fleet?